The lions and meat argument

[54321nought]

without mentioning which particular culture or cultures this argument comes from, as I don't want this to get into ethnic identities, just

I feel such rage when I hear this

if you put meat in front of lions, they will eventually eat it- its natural

In other words, women should cover up

its the comparison between men and lions that ramps up the rage for me, lions being seen as representing strength, courage, majesty, etc (never mind that they are in real life mostly scrawny scavengers)

my stock answer is what you are describing is more like flies and meat

but that misses the point really

Oh yes, and the notion that men are incapable of controlling themselves and so their actions are women's fault.

I've never understood how this is an argument put forward by people who also claim male superiority.

It makes no sense.

And here we come back to the idea that feminists are the only people who have a positive view on men; they don't have to be violent or rapists.

Patriarchy assumes they are.

Women are 'meat' in this sense? Nice bit of dehumanising women there. And excusing male people from taking any responsibility for themselves and their behaviour.

Having a penis does not equal having the self control and empathy skills of a toddler. Witness the very many men in the world who have penises and still manage to be decent human beings.

And here we come back to the idea that feminists are the only people who have a positive view on men; they don't have to be violent or rapists.

thats true, I've never thought of that

I've never heard that before it's really grim.

Don't the female lions actually do most of the hunting though?!

I've never heard that comparison before. What a ridiculous, ignorant point of view.

And here we come back to the idea that feminists are the only people who have a positive view on men; they don't have to be violent or rapists.

Indeed.

The riposte to people trotting out this nonsense is: "What a shame you describe these men as animals, and not capable of higher forms of behaviour like other humans. Most men I know are rather more capable than that, and don't deserve your low opinion of them."

@PerkingFaintly

Yep this is generally my reaction when I'm accused of being a man hater.

I hate male violence, I hate that rape is endemic.

If you equate that with hating men, that says more about your opinion of men than mine.

I can't resist a bit of meat either...but I don't claim to be a lion. Rats also don't have much self control around meat.
I hate rats.

Humans, particularly pious ones are supposed to be more disciplined than that. Discipline, willpower and goodness is not removing temptation, it is controlling yourself inspite of it.

@Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons

I've never heard that before it's really grim.

Don't the female lions actually do most of the hunting though?!

good point!

I've never heard of the lions and meat analogy. I've only ever heard of the sweets / lollipop and flies analogy i.e. women who don't cover themselves up are spoiled / tainted because lots of flies (men) have landed on them. I don't know why men from such cultures and religions think this line of reasoning paints men in a good light. And even more bizarre to have some women agreeing with them! 😵

When you read that very confused Metro piece by the young female who wants a double mastectomy that's in another FWR thread, it really feels like some of those youngsters have bought into the same line of thought: the double mastectomy to avoid the 'male gaze'.

@Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons

I've never heard that before it's really grim.

Don't the female lions actually do most of the hunting though?!

Yes, but the male always eats first, followed by the cubs and finally then the lionesses will get their share.

So the natural conclusion is that we should lock all men up in cages?

Lions don’t freely roam the streets anywhere. In countries where there may be a risk of a lion wandering into a village, I am sure the villagers are prepared to deal with it, in a a way that leaves the lion either caged or dead.

So the natural conclusion is that we should lock all men up in cages?

No, the natural conclusion is that we should not buy into the "It's in men's nature, they can't help it, so I guess we'd better focus on getting women to moderate their behaviour to keep themselves safe" bollocks. Men can help it. Some of them just don't want to.

DdraigGoch
Yes, but the male always eats first, followed by the cubs and finally then the lionesses will get their share.
True - I got focused on the hunt rather than the actual (grim) analogy of meat.
Plus I always get really cross about the lioness hunters getting to eat last

Women will always be smaller than men. Lions recognize prey because it is smaller and weaker. Women will always be easy to prey upon, and men know that. How much wrapping is upon the "meat" makes no difference. Women have value not because they have equal physical strength but because they have equal humanity..

The lions-and-meat argument has a rather nasty deeper meaning: It states that you cannot control men at all or must not control them, that their innate nature is to eat the meat, and that the meat really is an object, something to consume without asking for its permission. So the owner of the meat (not the meat itself) should keep the meat wrapped up and locked away.

Or we should treat violent men the way we treat actual wild lions who have acquired a taste for human meat... when they attack, we shoot them.

"the meat really is an object, something to consume without asking for its permission"

Exactly. It also ignores that the meat consumed by lions was a living animal before it was mere meat. The difference between lions and their meat is not, fundamentally, that lions are beings and meat is an object, but that lions are stronger than their prey and are able to kill other living animals and thus turn them into (dead) objects. It's basically a "might makes right" argument. In other words, if I'm stronger than you and it's to my benefit to dehumanise you, then I should be able to do that because strength is the defining feature of being human.

For most of their evolution, homonids were lion food. But then they got fire and pointy sticks and the lions had to keep back.

I had not heard that before, but an obvious flaw in addition to the ones already posted with lions and meat being compared to men and sex is that eating is necessary for a lions life, but sex is not necessary for a man’s life.

Because the meat is really sex, not women. That’s why it’s dehumanising. Because the women in the analogy are simply sex objects, not people.

That analogy manages to be offensive to both men and women.

Never heard that one before though have heard others like it.

If rape dropped to zero when all women covered up, it would still be offensive to men and women but might at least be an analogy that had a relationship with reality. Rape is not zero in societies where women cover. It's just that in those societies women are even less believed and even more vulnerable to male sexual violence. I don't know the official rape incidence in Saudi Arabia for example. Who thinks it's not zero?

@54321nought

without mentioning which particular culture or cultures this argument comes from, as I don't want this to get into ethnic identities, just

I feel such rage when I hear this

if you put meat in front of lions, they will eventually eat it- its natural

In other words, women should cover up

its the comparison between men and lions that ramps up the rage for me, lions being seen as representing strength, courage, majesty, etc (never mind that they are in real life mostly scrawny scavengers)

my stock answer is what you are describing is more like flies and meat

but that misses the point really

Yet if I put meat in front of my dog, she won’t eat it unless I say she can. Are these men suggesting they have less self control than a dog? Because if that’s how weak minded they are, then they absolutely shouldn’t hold any positions of power or responsibility.

I don’t understand why men use this argument, it just makes them look thick as fuck.

I immediately thought that the dark ages are still with us. Didn't the church just love to blame women for all the ills of mankind. Eve, the first harlot and so it continues.