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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Megan Murphy is on Joe Rogan

87 replies

miri1985 · 20/08/2021 21:24

Full ep here: open.spotify.com/episode/6yc6AIMf3JqLWygLQJ4Wrg

Short clip:

OP posts:
ScreamingMeMe · 20/08/2021 22:00

Ahhh excellent.

Mango1982 · 22/08/2021 20:05

Watching it now love joe

MalagaNights · 04/11/2021 12:47

Has anyone listened to this?

She talks about not being a radical feminist, how she no longer uses the term patriarchy, how she's moved from being left wing to now voting conservative and would have voted for Trump over Biden.

She talks about how some feminists are now attacking her.

She's left Canada and moved to Mexico because of her concerns with free speech and authoritarianism.

Anyone else heard this, or resonate with her move away from some femininist ideology and current 'progressive' ideology?

It resonates with me and I think the trans issue has been central in both these respects.

IDanielRadcliffe · 04/11/2021 13:22

I haven’t listened yet Malaga but I can identify with some of that, or at least it’s made me rethink a lot. I find current ‘progressives’ frankly scary in some respects.

LaetitiaASD · 04/11/2021 13:31

@MalagaNights

Has anyone listened to this?

She talks about not being a radical feminist, how she no longer uses the term patriarchy, how she's moved from being left wing to now voting conservative and would have voted for Trump over Biden.

She talks about how some feminists are now attacking her.

She's left Canada and moved to Mexico because of her concerns with free speech and authoritarianism.

Anyone else heard this, or resonate with her move away from some femininist ideology and current 'progressive' ideology?

It resonates with me and I think the trans issue has been central in both these respects.

Being progressive does not mean accepting regressive and conservative things simply because some progressives say they are progressive!
Fariha31 · 04/11/2021 13:31

I think the schock of seeing the 'left' stab women in the back with such vehemence has made people question a lot of things.
I have questioned some aspects of Feminism too (and I would not describe myself as 'on the left' anymore, but Im in good company as Glen Greenwald also says similar)
I think we are only at the begining of seeing the things Genderism has destroyed.

Fariha31 · 04/11/2021 13:34

Someone said to me today;
'being on the left has increasingly involved a moralistic reflex rather than clear, analytical thinking'.

MalagaNights · 04/11/2021 16:54

I think the gender issue caused me to see how destructive identity politics is when it becomes ideological.

Whereas previously it felt like defending marginalised groups, so all good.
It's been revealed now as how this can become ideological and just another power game.

I think I then started to see some aspects of feminism as ideological as well and has also impacted on how I see the BLM movement.

I think 5 years ago I'd have naively seen all this as just positive championing of marginalised groups.

Now I see more destructive forces.

LobsterNapkin · 04/11/2021 20:11

It reminds me a bit of Mary Harrington's essay this week, where she says that feminism became undermined because it embraced liberal individualism rather than the kind of social understanding that underpinned the earlier women's movement and leftist social movements. And, I'd add, also traditional conservatism.

Once you see that progressives are actually liberals, (and I don't mean fans of liberal democracy but rather fairly radical individualists,) which is an ideology that is not all that compatible with the left or conservatism, it shatters political tribalism under the current model.

There has been almost no real political representation for old style leftists or conservatives for about 40 years, and people became used to that. But it's no longer possible to avoid seeing it for many. And at this particular moment, most of the "left" parties seem to be moving farther and farther into toxic identity politics which are fundamentally apologetics for global capitalism, while many of the conservative parties are looking at traditionally leftist things like movement of labour, protection of industry and workers, and even pro-union legislation.

So - no wonder people who saw themselves as being on the left, once their eyes are opened to what is going on, are rethinking.

LobsterNapkin · 04/11/2021 20:25

Being progressive does not mean accepting regressive and conservative things simply because some progressives say they are progressive!

What does that really mean, though? Progress towards what? What does it matter if something is conservative or not?

In a significant way, political conservatism is about Chesterton's fence. Society is a complex system, like an ecology, that is difficult to analyze. Many things have functionality that we don't see, and changes have all kinds of long-term implications, including in terms of changing the structure of our thinking, that we don't expect. So tread carefully.

The outcomes of gender ideology, and the things that led to it, have made people take more notice of that, as they see it at work.

Clymene · 04/11/2021 20:26

I haven't watched it and no I haven't found my politics have changed. I have stopped following Murphy though since she became a rabid anti-vaxxer. I have no time for conspiracy theorists.

NutellaEllaElla · 04/11/2021 20:51

@MalagaNights

I think the gender issue caused me to see how destructive identity politics is when it becomes ideological.

Whereas previously it felt like defending marginalised groups, so all good.
It's been revealed now as how this can become ideological and just another power game.

I think I then started to see some aspects of feminism as ideological as well and has also impacted on how I see the BLM movement.

I think 5 years ago I'd have naively seen all this as just positive championing of marginalised groups.

Now I see more destructive forces.

@MalagaNights i'm really interested in this, would you say more? The destructive ideological side of Feminism?
BigHuff · 04/11/2021 20:52

My politics haven't changed, but I am far less authoritarian and more easy going than I used to be! Five years ago (well, maybe more than five years ago, now) I was very much TWAW and would get unreasonably (to my current way of thinking) offended/upset by discourse/jokes/etc., that disagreed with my opinions. Now I think: intent matters; nuance matters; speech is not violence; you can laugh at pretty much anything; it is better to connect with people on issues you agree on rather than cut yourself off from them based on what you disagree on. Identity politics went badly wrong.

WarriorN · 04/11/2021 20:54

@Fariha31

Someone said to me today; 'being on the left has increasingly involved a moralistic reflex rather than clear, analytical thinking'.

Triggernometry interview called "why did labour loose the GE?" With Matthew Goodwin is exactly about this.

timeisnotaline · 04/11/2021 21:02

I do struggle to take on board anything a rabid antivaxxer says, as they are clearly anti logic so I don’t feel at all better that they agree with me about one thing.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 04/11/2021 21:27

It reminds me a bit of Mary Harrington's essay this week,

Is that Unherd , Lobster ?

unherd.com/2021/11/the-sexual-revolution-killed-feminism/

JojobaFromOctober · 04/11/2021 22:16

Is Meghan Murphy anti-vaccine, isn't she just opposed to vaccine mandates/passports? I know this is wildly off-topic for this board but I have always had a lot of respect for MM, although I haven't really followed her too closely this past year, and I would be somewhat dismayed if she really is opposed to vaccination in and of itself?

1Week · 04/11/2021 22:50

It's the conflation thing
I disagree with self ID - You want trans people dead!
I disagree with vaccine mandates - You're an anti vaxxer!!

There's examples all over

LobsterNapkin · 04/11/2021 22:54

@JojobaFromOctober

Is Meghan Murphy anti-vaccine, isn't she just opposed to vaccine mandates/passports? I know this is wildly off-topic for this board but I have always had a lot of respect for MM, although I haven't really followed her too closely this past year, and I would be somewhat dismayed if she really is opposed to vaccination in and of itself?
The other thing that gets conflated is people who have concerns about these covid vaccines in particular, and vaccinations over all.

Now they all seem to be labeled anti-vaxxers.

LobsterNapkin · 04/11/2021 22:59

[quote EmbarrassingHadrosaurus]It reminds me a bit of Mary Harrington's essay this week,

Is that Unherd , Lobster ?

unherd.com/2021/11/the-sexual-revolution-killed-feminism/[/quote]
Yes, that's the one.

quixote9 · 04/11/2021 23:01

It's one thing to recognize misogynist TRA lefties for being full of shit. It's another to say you'd vote for Trump.

Leftists turning their concern for the marginalized into a new way of beating up women is crap, but that doesn't make the Cheeto-topped Dogpile any less crap.

Women are homeless. Acknowledge that. Don't go running into the opposite trap.

LobsterNapkin · 04/11/2021 23:03

Did a bit of googling - Murphy isn't against the vaccine. She thinks there is a lack of honestly about how well it works to prevent transmission, and that mainly it protects the person who is vaccinated. And therefore mandates aren't really justified.

She ties this to her pro-choice views in terms of bodily autonomy.

1Week · 04/11/2021 23:20

I really like Mary Harringtons work.

It's a new perspective, to me, anyway. Lots to think about.

She considers a mix of things. One the one hand she traces the feminist movement along materialist lines- its the conditions of life that drive change. Like the much maligned Phyliss Shaffleys remark that the washing machine helped women more than the feminist movement did.
Otoh, she is strong on the emotional and psychological aspects of sex and motherhood. Nothing new to the regulars here but that's the huge missing piece in mainstream Only Gestators culture.

I think she's on here as well, so hi Mary!

Floisme · 04/11/2021 23:36

I watched it at the time though I'm not sure if I saw it all. I don't think Meghan Murphy is someone who's easy to pigeon hole. She reminded me of Posie Parker in some ways: shoots from the hip, very anti authoritarian and pro free speech (hardly surprising given her Twitter experiences), scathing about the state of left wing politics in the way that only someone who used to be on the left can be, and unapologetic about prioritising women's rights. As I remember, she challenged Rogan over pornography and prostitution while also saying she would never tell women what they should or shouldn't do. She did say she'd changed some of her views and had clashed with some feminists as a result. It was an interesting discussion and yes some of it resonated and I imagine would do for a lot of posters. I don't remember anything about vaccines.

Clymene · 04/11/2021 23:40

@LobsterNapkin

Did a bit of googling - Murphy isn't against the vaccine. She thinks there is a lack of honestly about how well it works to prevent transmission, and that mainly it protects the person who is vaccinated. And therefore mandates aren't really justified.

She ties this to her pro-choice views in terms of bodily autonomy.

That's an argument that doesn't really stack up in a public health system. It's like the whole American right to bear arms thing. It doesn't really stack up in a civilised society. Insisting that your own choices have no impact on wider society is idiotic.
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