"No debate" - a TV producer's perspective

[NecessaryScene]

In 2018, Channel 4 aired a documentary called Trans Kids: It's Time to Talk, hosted by Stella O'Malley (who now co-hosts the Gender: A Wider Lens podcast).

This was one of the first serious looks at the issue of childhood transition on mainstream TV, and was filmed around the time of the GRA reform battle.

For its producer, Olly Lambert, an experienced TV documentary maker, but new to this particular "debate", it was an eye-opening experience to try to deal with the pro-gender side.

Here's Posie Parker's description:

In 2018 Venice Allan and I, with the fabulous support of Julie Burchill, organised a talk called “Woke News”. We wanted to explore the silencing and policing of journalists and filmmakers concerning trans issues. One of the panellists was the fantastic documentary filmmaker, Olly Lambert. He described his experience of making the groundbreaking documentary “Trans kids - its time to talk”. His account is as horrifying as hilarious.

I previously linked to this talk over on the Maya-on-Radio-5-Live thread, but a few people thought it was worth its own thread.

At some point this stonewalling of discussion needs to become the story.

Original documentary on Channel 4
Archive copy of documentary

Something to watch this evening - thanks.

It's fascinating. As I said on the other thread, this man's not a feminist and may not be particularly gender critical. He's a seasoned documentary maker who was utterly shocked at how hard it was to get this documentary made.

So many people from Maria Miller to Stonewall appeared desperate for it all to remain in the dark.

Thank you Necessary. I watched both yesterday after seeing them in the Maya thread. I'm not sure how they passed me by previously, but they were well worth the watch.

They further exemplify the lunacy of the way this subject is handled. It strikes me as ironic that the majority of people have allowed the UK to sleepwalk into this situation by their unquestioning acceptance of the proclamations of the 'woke'.

Unquestioning acceptance because people have believed what they were told, that gender ideology is somehow all tied up with gay rights, and now that most people have rejected homophobia (which is a good thing), they feel they must also accept all the gender stuff, but they don't understand the specifics.

Also, deliberate misinformation and invention of terms which are designed to confuse.

Transwoman, transman - a significant proportion of the populace think these mean the opposite of what their inventors decided they would mean. Thus, when they hear people complaining about transwomen in women's prisons or women's sport, and others saying it's transphobic to object, the confused people agree because they're under the impression the transwomen are biologically female but trans-identifying.

Pushing the narrative that children can be born in the wrong body.

Constant use in the tabloids of the term 'sex change'.

Massive confusion between 'gender' and 'sex'.

The one that really challenges my blood pressure - 'living as a woman' or 'living as a man'. What does this mean? Which of the 3.5 million women on the planet did you have in mind?

Totally unscrupulous use of extremely dodgy research about suicidal thoughts in people with gendre issues as justification for letting them have life-changing medical treatment when they are too young to give informed consent, and/or, regardless of age, when it's abundantly clear that there are a great many other factors that could be leading to their distress and which aren't being addressed or treated, because transition is a magic bullet.

Suppressing research into efficacy of treatments and especially into detransitioners.

Disrupting the census and other attempts to get objective evidence of how widespread transidentification is.

Threatening anyone who tries to speak out on this issue with disciplinary action at work or in their professional body. Smear tactics on social media.

The bubble will eventually burst. There will be a lot of casualties, sadly.

Thank you for posting this - will watch it later. Really interesting.

*billion

I remember watching these a year or two ago (maybe 2019) Olly articulated the very real results of debate suppression, whether it is because of hate or inability to hear alternative views from people who are affected by your demands, whatever.

All it has done for me is highlight how completely unstable the views are supporting gender identity being prioritised over sex.

Olly and Stella are brilliant. And Stella is now a voice of reason for balanced treatment.

And this is such a good video for showing to other people - the 'sitting on the fence' people. Because it's a MAN speaking, an articulate, authoritative man, not one of us hormonal squeaky women.
I so wish that he had made the film about the making of the film...

It was remarkable when Olly Lambert said that he'd never encountered anything like this #nodebate when making a documentary about some of the world's most notorious geopolitical hotspots (e.g., Arab-Israeli).

It reminded me of Damon Linkers: The lost art of being reasonable

We have stopped believing in reason's power to persuade. The right thinks the critical social theories espoused by many on the left are both wrong and pernicious, but it doesn't expect to be able to convince the left of this view. Hence the move to use raw political or legal power to suppress it. The left, meanwhile, thinks many of those who don't share its premises are motivated by racism and other forms of bigotry that are in most cases untouchable by argument. Hence the move to use moral condemnation to get resisters excluded from social circles and cultural institutions in which they enjoy various forms of power and status.
…
The utter futility of this outcome suggests that we might be better off abandoning the effort to dodge debates about substance. Instead of attempting to rule our opponents out of line, we might try reasoning with them.
…
It may well be that preserving a culture of free speech presumes a certain level of open-mindedness among its members, so that every one of them can trust that free public debate will be conducted and adjudicated in good faith, with each side of every dispute seeking to listen and engage substantively and on the merits with the claims, premises, and implications of the views espoused by the other. When such reasonableness atrophies, so does trust. And with the waning of trust comes an effort to shut down debate for the benefit of one's own side.

archive: archive.is/c08LH

theweek.com/articles/969266/lost-art-being-reasonable

I'm somewhat conflicted (I'm putting aside the largely US context of the piece).

I see many appeals on FWR for a well-reasoned case for gender ideology. Helen Joyce actively solicited them when preparing her book.

Olly Lambert describes his willingness to listen to demands for extraordinary concessions when he was making a programme that would be his contribution to this social and political matter but could still not elicit collaboration or cooperation. For one perspective I can see that there seems to be no need to persuade when you can convince legislators, policy makers, and many influential others to make the changes that you want without discussion with those who are most affected by it. (The full article elaborates on this.)

What I find most disturbing is the complete absence of any desire from gender ideologists to engage in order to lay out an evidence-based perspective to inform the case for such drastic intervention, far less to persuade.

Thanks for that video, just watched it all. Unsurprising but still a fascinating insight. I wished he would have talked about the car crash in trying to get the programme to air.

I don't normally watch videos but I saw this one a while back and it was very entertaining as well as informative. Would recommend! DH enjoyed it too.

Yup, and Olly Lambert's chilling conclusion:
(spoiler alert)

He is a documentary maker, and he says that anyone who believes in their cause is ALWAYS glad to get their side of things on film. So his conclusion is that the side of the argument who are refusing to take part don't actually believe what they are saying.

The Gender Critical side were all happy to talk on film.

@Helleofabore

I remember watching these a year or two ago (maybe 2019) Olly articulated the very real results of debate suppression, whether it is because of hate or inability to hear alternative views from people who are affected by your demands, whatever.

All it has done for me is highlight how completely unstable the views are supporting gender identity being prioritised over sex.

Olly and Stella are brilliant. And Stella is now a voice of reason for balanced treatment.

I remember watching it too, so very shocking that the negotiations to participate were more demanding than warring territories!

It does make you wonder what demands are made in exchange for participation in some programming and which production companies and tv channels capitulate in order to secure key interviews and who stands by their editorial principles and says no.

For any Helen Webberley fans in the house - she's one of the main stars of Olly's tale.

(Oh, and I misattributed Olly as a "producer" - he was the director. Apologies - I know precise credits are important...)

It was a fascinating listen. I sometimes felt he was positioning himself a little too much as the centrist voice of reason. My spidey senses would have tingled a bit if I'd been invited to be interviewed from the pro-youth-affirmation side.

It was 2 or 3 years ago? I wonder whether he now feels the increasing stridency of the discussions on this (and I say this as a reasonably strident GC person) would push him a bit in the other direction. I've been sneered at by too many people in this to be sure that people with a particular concept of themselves will stick with their original views.

Looks an interesting film, will add to the list.

At some point this stonewalling of discussion needs to become the story.

For sure. It's like a big black hole sucking up thought, reason and rationality.

"At some point this stonewalling of discussion needs to become the story."

But don't look to the BBC to break it while they continue to facilitate the Trans-substantiators refusal to debate openly with anyone who does not agree in advance they are right about everything.

It’s a brilliant watch and it has further confirmed my discomfort with accepting trans in schools...

They were both great, thanks for sharing.

that's a good watch

he's obviously a person who has seen a lot of human behaviour, and he had the measure of helen webberley didn't he?

a woman who has sterilised a 13 year old child

@PermanentTemporary

It was a fascinating listen. I sometimes felt he was positioning himself a little too much as the centrist voice of reason. My spidey senses would have tingled a bit if I'd been invited to be interviewed from the pro-youth-affirmation side.

It was 2 or 3 years ago? I wonder whether he now feels the increasing stridency of the discussions on this (and I say this as a reasonably strident GC person) would push him a bit in the other direction. I've been sneered at by too many people in this to be sure that people with a particular concept of themselves will stick with their original views.

I think Olly's firmly on the side of Adult Human Females, judging by his tweets mobile.twitter.com/ollylambert?lang=en

Thanks for this, watched Stella's film and I remember her apologising for not being able to get anyone on "the other side" on a few times. Both are great.

@oldwomanwhoruns

And this is such a good video for showing to other people - the 'sitting on the fence' people. Because it's a MAN speaking, an articulate, authoritative man, not one of us hormonal squeaky women. I so wish that he had made the film about the making of the film...

Unfortunately this is exactly what I thought as I watched.

I do wish he wasn't quite so sneering though in this film. A video of him explaining without any comedic intonation would be more useful. Ears close at any of this.

Really interesting. I recall Helen Joyce saying the same when she first tried to write an article and this is what led her to write her book.

Very much need this - "At some point this stonewalling of discussion needs to become the story."

That was so so illuminating. Coordinated stonewalling. I would love to have a pint with him. He makes a living from telling stories and he knows there is a dynamite story there. I bet he is questioning why he feels totally comfortable wading into the middle Eastern conflict, but he is very unlikely to go near this again. More toxic than Gaza. Wowsers.