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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Help! HR complaint about my (pretty unexceptional) views

66 replies

RightSideOfHistory · 17/08/2021 00:03

I know I have the law on my side thanks to the wonderful Maya, but I am feeling very shaken now that it's happening to me. I really wish I could go into detail here as I would appreciate some specific advice, but I'm scared about outing myself, so I'll just summarise the situation at a very high level. I give up a lot of my time to help with my company's EDI initiatives, because I care deeply about making things better for women in my field (which is very male-dominated and quite misogynistic), but pretty much everyone else involved in these initiatives subscribes fully to gender ideology. I am always very careful about what I say, because I know what happens to women who talk out of line, but I also speak up for what I think is right where possible, and try to offer alternative points of view. But now I am under investigation because a complaint has been made to HR about some perfectly reasonable things I said (plus some things they claimed I said, but which I didn't in fact say. I assume their incorrect inference was due to the language barrier between sex-realists and gender-ideologists. Though even if I had said what I understand they claimed I said, I don't think it would be worthy of complaint).

Since I can't give specifics (I really wish I could, as I feel very alone), please could you give me your best general advice for dealing with situations like this? The case should absolutely be thrown out, because I did nothing wrong; but regardless of what happens, I think I need to make a stand now. I feel suffocated, and I can't actually believe we've reached a situation where women being bullied into silence for talking about their own struggles is considered acceptable at a supposedly progressive company. It's dystopian.

OP posts:
JoodyBlue · 17/08/2021 09:04

Really good advice here and nothing to add to the legal/HR advice. But from me I would say hold your head up, keep breathing in and out, if you feel stressed and panicked stand still and consciously make an effort to relax. A poster said above, self care is important. Yoga is a great idea. And try not to lose sleep. If you have spoken the truth in support of women you are a warrior - you have a lot of support Flowers and you are not in the wrong.

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 17/08/2021 09:07

No further useful advice to add, but Flowers

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/08/2021 09:20

More Flowers from me OP. This is the modern day equivalent of the Salem witch trials and it's shameful that organisations even allow this type of harassment of women.
Hope the excellent advice on here is helpful.

MonsignorMirth · 17/08/2021 09:56

At this point I wouldn't be tempted to try and explain yourself or give more points of view as that might give them more ammunition (eg, saying sex and gender are different, and saying they are the same, are both things that TRAs state, so there'll be some way of twisting anything you offer to suit them).

geojellyfish · 17/08/2021 10:16

Some very helpful advice has already been offered so I don't have anything to add in that regard. I can only imagine how anxious and concerned you must be feeling.

Please know that you have the support of many thousands of women who share your reasonable views about sex. We are here for you and thank you for standing up to those who seek to silence and intimidate us.

I will be thinking of you. I hope you'll let us know how you get on, but also understand if you can't.

Datun · 17/08/2021 10:44

[quote Dimpsey]This article by Peter Daly may useful to you: www.linkedin.com/pulse/forstater-judgment-what-next-peter-daly[/quote]
That is an excellent summary of the Maya Forstater case and its implications, legal and otherwise.

OP, your belief in eg biological sex and that it matters, and your disbelief in eg gender identity theories is protected by law. And your company's policies have to reflect that. Otherwise they could be accused of discrimination.

RoyalCorgi · 17/08/2021 10:47

[quote R0wantrees]It's worth making contact with Legal Feminist group
legalfeminist.org.uk/

and/or Sex Matters Organisation sex-matters.org/[/quote]
I agree with Rowan. Definitely get in touch with one or both of those organisations. Maya will be able to put you in touch with lawyers.

You're not the only person going through this - I've heard of other similar stories. But as you say, your beliefs are protected in law. You have right on your side.

EarthSight · 17/08/2021 10:54

I haven't faced this (yet) but don't have any meetings with them alone. I've just heard of occasions where people have gone into 'informal chats' following a friendly phone call with HR.....only to get there and face 2-3 people with clipboards and it becomes an interrogation in all but name.

Some people have mentioned unions here, but they might not support you because some of them are on-board with this ideology. If they do support you, except it to be lukewarm. If HR call you for a 'chat' or 'informal meeting' I would be inclined to tell them that you are happy to do so, but only in the presence of your lawyer and from now on, any communication they have with you in writing will be passed on to the lawyer. Don't have verbal communications with them from now on.

I'm sorry you're going through this and hope you have support.

EarthSight · 17/08/2021 10:57

@PhiRhoSigma

Is your Line Manager supportive of you? Would be nice to have someone else from within the company on your side.
It would be @PhiRhoSigma , however, the OP needs to be extremely careful now who she speaks to. At the end of the day, the OP doesn't pay her colleagues' salary - the company does. As much as they might like her, they may not be willing to support her as that might 'out' them too.
FindTheTruth · 17/08/2021 11:22

@RightSideOfHistory The complaint to management about you might be harassment.

If you scroll down here, you'll see specific case examples and 'what determines harassment' if confronted with a complaint.
legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/06/26/you-say-objective-i-say-subjective-what-is-the-legal-test-a-blog-about-harassment-and-protected-beliefs/

RoyalCorgi · 17/08/2021 11:35

The complaint to management about you might be harassment.

Really good point. Attack is the best form of defence, so a complaint to HR about being harassed isn't a bad idea. Also, if the complaint is in writing, and what they've said about you is untrue (eg if they've called you "transphobic"), it could constitute libel.

Enough4me · 17/08/2021 11:36

Remember 'no comment' is a valid reply if you are pushed for an immediate response at any point.

Along with requesting all questions in writing in advance.

Questionnaires usually include a 'do not wish to comment' or 'no opinion' option because thoughts, preferences and beliefs are private. Our employers do not have the right to access our thoughts.

FindTheTruth · 17/08/2021 11:38

Our employers do not have the right to access our thoughts.
Interesting Enough.

HermioneGrangersWand · 17/08/2021 12:06

I am an employment lawyer. I am sorry you are going through this and that it is stressful.

Without knowing the details, generally I would say there are likely to be two key issues. As a complaint has been made, it is likely that your employer is wise to investigate it, but remember that it doesn't necessarily mean that there will be any adverse implications for you (beyond the stress of the process itself, of course). As part of this investigation, you should be able to know the nature of the complaint, both the facts which are alleged and why it is suggested they might be complaint-worthy (which it sounds like you do), and given the opportunity to provide your version of events (which you should do). Hopefully that will be the end of it, but if your employer proceeds to a disciplinary process, again you have the right to understand exactly what it is alleged you may have done and what the potential implications are, and to a fair process.

I don't know anything about your employer, and they ought to conduct both investigation and disciplinary process fairly, but as we know this isn't always the case.

Secondly, if the complaint relates to your holding and expressing gender critical beliefs, they may not legally discriminate against you on the basis of your beliefs. Equally these beliefs would not prevent them from disciplining you in certain circumstances (which do not seem to be the case, but e.g. harassment of transgender colleagues). It's hard to say more as you quite understandably don't want to share details.

In my experience, cock up is more common than conspiracy, and you would be surprised how often the process is deeply flawed purely because people don't know what they are doing. So if I were you, I would politely but assertively ensure that my employer was aware of both the facts and the law, and I would ask to take a colleague to meetings to act as notetaker. I would also bear in mind that if the process is run by someone with an agenda, an irrational fear of appearing to be transphobic themselves or just not very good at their jobs, it has the potential to go wrong for you and then need unpicking and if you think this is happening, I would consider flagging what is going on to someone senior and sensible, e.g. further up the HR chain or via a formal grievance. If you have access to legal advice in one of the ways described above or can afford to pay for advice, this would likely be worthwhile.

catfunk · 17/08/2021 12:46

You not thinking it was worth of complaint isn't really the issue. Stick to facts - what was said/ not said/ what evidence is there.

NewlyGranny · 17/08/2021 14:19

Any meeting - even something called an "informal chat" needs an agenda and a friend by your side! If you are kept in the dark about the topic to be discussed you are at a disadvantage from the get-go. Having an agenda, however brief, allows you time to prepare and the control to say when anyone strays off piste, as in "You said you wanted to talk about X and Y, and we have, and now you're raising Z, A and B. I think we should be finished now and these other topics could be carried forward to another meeting."

Listen hard for anyone who wants to 'check your thinking' or asks what was 'in your mind' at any point. Make a note of the wording and who asked it, and you could follow up with, "Are you asking to police my thoughts? Are there company policies covering what I am allowed to think while at work? May I see them, please?" And follow up with an email requesting company policies that outline acceptable thoughts for employees.

NewlyGranny · 17/08/2021 14:23

Salem witch trial, Chinese cultural Revolution... We may not be there yet but it's clear where all this could be headed.

WeAreTheWomen · 17/08/2021 15:43

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

MaudTheInvincible · 17/08/2021 20:59

Twitter Thread on Trade Unions and womens equality from Twitter:

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1424003981697855489.html

MaudTheInvincible · 17/08/2021 21:03

[quote MaudTheInvincible]Twitter Thread on Trade Unions and womens equality from Twitter:

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1424003981697855489.html[/quote]
twitter.com/legalfeminist/status/1427719676918968327?s=20

Help! HR complaint about my (pretty unexceptional) views
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 17/08/2021 21:31

[quote MaudTheInvincible]Twitter Thread on Trade Unions and womens equality from Twitter:

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1424003981697855489.html[/quote]
Just in case, archive version: archive.is/pcfwC

RightSideOfHistory · 17/08/2021 22:20

Thank you all very much for your advice and support. There are some great suggestions here, and I am taking them all on board. Given the substance of the complaint, it would be astonishing if they tried to take it further. But if they do, I will certainly push back. I haven't done anything wrong or breached any policy (though if “expressing an opinion others disagree with” is considered unacceptable, I can point to many comments from colleagues in the “gender not sex” camp who have said things that I find extremely sexist and regressive).

Thankfully there is someone senior at the company who has a very good grasp of the current political climate, and has been openly supportive of me and extremely helpful. It would be a lot harder if I felt I was completely on my own. It's funny, this person has been a far better "ally" to me, and women in general, than any of the people who take every opportunity possible to mention the importance of “allyship”.

OP posts:
RightSideOfHistory · 17/08/2021 22:31

Garbled my words there. End of first paragraph was supposed to say 'I can point to many comments from colleagues in the “gender not sex” camp that I find extremely sexist and regressive.' Written ones, too.

OP posts:
HerewardTheWoke · 17/08/2021 22:45

I'm sorry you're going through this.

I'm concerned at the number of people advising to contact your union. I think that sadly in the current climate it would be risky to assume that your union is on your side or will give you correct advice.

If you get to the point of needing legal representation, take independent legal advice if you can, using legal cover from e.g. home insurance if you can.

It doesn't matter what colleagues have said that is unacceptable/sexist/regressive. Your case will be focused on you - stay calm and don't bring others into it. TedImgoingmad has given excellent advice.

FindTheTruth · 18/08/2021 09:39

OP thank goodness you have support. One more suggestion: write down every regressive and sexist comment made and start keeping a log religiously.

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