New to the debate

[Frederica852]

Started hearing more about issues around women's rights and transphobia lately and am slightly mystified by all the labelling of people's view and aggressively calling people phobic etc etc

Trying to make sense of it. Clearly a nuanced issue but there are some key points that are beginning to take shape in my mind E.g.

• biological sex is male or female. You're born one or the other and can transition if you wish during your life.
• gender is becoming a separate concept from sex so you can be biologically male but identify as female and vice versa.
• gender is a tricky concept because it's hard to work out what it means without getting into old fashioned stereotypes.
• some don't believe gender is a thing and there is only biological sex
• some people think the people in the point above are transphobic.

For my own part, I was born female and therefore I am now a woman. I don't know what gender identity really is. I am a woman but I like football and boxing and I hate wearing dresses. I don't think that makes me a trans man. That said I'm fine with others feeling a strong sense of gender identity and identifying as a different gender to their biological sex. Live and let live and all that

Am I getting the basics at least?

So what do they believe then?

You sound like you're making sense to me - reasonable summary of the concepts at high level, and it sounds like you're starting from a similar point to most people here.

But here you'll find firm resistance on the basis of having looked hard at this - particularly through a feminist lens - and seen the fundamental logical/philosophical problems with the stuff being put forward by the gender believers, and the actual practical harm it can do.

It's not just that we don't believe in it - that these effectively religious concepts should not be part of a secular society - we think the concept is harmful. To women and children in particular.

Here's the "break it down for me" thread, which started with a poster like you, and then built up to a more general resource archive. Have a go at chewing through this...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

That biology is real? Sex exists and has relevance in certain situations?

Ah! That's an obfuscation.

Many here say things like "I am female, have short hair, fix engines and wear trousers. Does that make me male?"

They mean that the rigid stereotypes around gender are ridiculous, have no place in society really. They bind us, restrict us and serve to enforce some really toxic masculinity that harms men and boys as much as it does women and girls.

But, as you have seen, that gets twisted to make it seem silly, bigoted etc.

Keep reading. You will find your own understanding.

Yes OP, you've got the basics.

The ideology is based in queer theory and doesn't follow any logical or set rules, so not everyone who supports the theory agrees on what they are supporting.
Also, this is an open forum thats not user-moderated, so not all the posters here are feminists.
Which explains the mixture of answers you are getting.

I don’t think any one would call you a man.
The point about trans ideology is that it uses stereotypes of femininity/masculinity to prescribe gender for example, a four year old boy who likes girls toys and dresses is encouraged to think he’s a girl.
There are many examples of this- the Mermaids genderbread chart etc.

That biology is real? Sex exists and has relevance in certain situations?

The question was "what do trans people believe", in response to PumpkinSpiceWoman's somewhat odd assertion about what we'd say trans people believe.

Good question, and I'd like to hear PumpkinSpiceWoman's answer.

I'll try myself. I don't think it's "trans people", its trans activists, or gender believers, but they would say you'd be a man if you say you are. So it's a question of whether you want to say that or not, which is up to you.

How you're supposed to determine whether you want to or not is not clear, and then you're left with the question of why is the category of "people who want to say they're X" more useful than the category of "people who are X" for reality-based things like sports categorisation and safeguarding.

(No-one can tell anyone else what their identity is. Except Owen Jones, who can tell women they're not non-binary.)

That said I'm fine with others feeling a strong sense of gender identity and identifying as a different gender to their biological sex. Live and let live and all that

This is something most of us here would agree with. However the problem is there are people in government, education, media etc. who are trying to convince everyone that feeling like you are a different gender means you are literally the opposite sex, and must be treated as such. That's where the problems arise as far as I'm concerned.

I don't really care how someone wishes to present themselves - if a man feels more comfortable wearing women's clothes, calling themselves a more 'female' name etc. But that doesn't make them an actual women, nor should it entitle them to enter women's spaces, places in women only groups, women's prisons etc.

Women and girls need single sex spaces for our safety and privacy. No males, no matter how they identify should be permitted in these spaces.

But apparently, that makes me a hateful bigot. That's why there is a 'debate', because women are pushing back against this, and it's making some other people very angry.

@Frederica852

So what do they believe then?

That gender identity is a matter of your sense of self, defined solely by how you self-identity. Not by "gender stereotypes"

And you self-identify as a woman. Making that your gender identity.

What does "self-identify" mean?

Look it up in the dictionary.

www.christian.org.uk/news/mermaids-training-for-police-ridiculed-online/

RainbowSpunk quits in round 2.

dictionary.com/browse/self-identify
dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/self-identify

@TheBurmundseyIndustrialEstate

I don’t think any one would call you a man. The point about trans ideology is that it uses stereotypes of femininity/masculinity to prescribe gender for example, a four year old boy who likes girls toys and dresses is encouraged to think he’s a girl. There are many examples of this- the Mermaids genderbread chart etc.

No one is "prescribing" gender. That is, and always has been, a lie. Gender identity is entirely self-declared.

Gender identity is self declared, but the rules of gender are why people think they belong to one gender more than the other.

Bloody hell, the sealion breeding programme is going well

I'm always amazed how threads like this get instant replies, while many about, for example, prisons, hospital wards and safeguarding don't.

@Thelnebriati

Gender identity is self declared, but the rules of gender are why people think they belong to one gender more than the other.

Nope, there are plenty trans and non-trans women alike with "masculine" interests. And this doesn't make either of them any less of a woman.

What are non-trans women?

Are they like non-men?

@TurquoiseBaubles

Bloody hell, the sealion breeding programme is going well

I'm always amazed how threads like this get instant replies, while many about, for example, prisons, hospital wards and safeguarding don't.

When you're actively getting politicians to enact repressive policies against "sealions", and striving for a world where "sealions" are driven to extinction, that's when "sealions" are no longer in the wrong for speaking up.

biological sex is male or female. You're born one or the other and can transition if you wish during your life.

I think you've understood the basics, this is the only thing I think requires clarifying.

You are born of either the male or female sex class, you can never change this although you can take hormones and have surgery to appear as if you are the opposite sex to which you are born.

@TurquoiseBaubles

What are non-trans women?

Are they like non-men?

Cis women. Women who aren't trans. But I know that word is a no-no around there.

*around here

You mean women?

The word that is actually being driven to extinction?