New to the debate

[Frederica852]

Started hearing more about issues around women's rights and transphobia lately and am slightly mystified by all the labelling of people's view and aggressively calling people phobic etc etc

Trying to make sense of it. Clearly a nuanced issue but there are some key points that are beginning to take shape in my mind E.g.

• biological sex is male or female. You're born one or the other and can transition if you wish during your life.
• gender is becoming a separate concept from sex so you can be biologically male but identify as female and vice versa.
• gender is a tricky concept because it's hard to work out what it means without getting into old fashioned stereotypes.
• some don't believe gender is a thing and there is only biological sex
• some people think the people in the point above are transphobic.

For my own part, I was born female and therefore I am now a woman. I don't know what gender identity really is. I am a woman but I like football and boxing and I hate wearing dresses. I don't think that makes me a trans man. That said I'm fine with others feeling a strong sense of gender identity and identifying as a different gender to their biological sex. Live and let live and all that

Am I getting the basics at least?

No one is getting rid of the word "women"

Well they are trying to change the meaning of the word so it's the same effect.

Everyone knows what a woman is and everyone knows what a transwoman is but then TRAs try to say they are the same, which they clearly are not.

The only way transwomen are women is if you change the meaning of the word woman which is what they are trying to do.

@WallaceinAnderland

No one is getting rid of the word "women"

Well they are trying to change the meaning of the word so it's the same effect.

Everyone knows what a woman is and everyone knows what a transwoman is but then TRAs try to say they are the same, which they clearly are not.

The only way transwomen are women is if you change the meaning of the word woman which is what they are trying to do.

Someone on this very thread has used the term "non transwoman"

Jesus Christ, "non transwoman" ?

I truly despair.

The only way transwomen are women is if you change the meaning of the word woman which is what they are trying to do.

While, of course, keeping everything set up based on the old meaning exactly the same even though the new meaning has nothing whatsoever in common with the old.

This is how I know the demands of the dominant voices who claim to speak for trans people are not acting in good faith, because even taken on their own terms the assertions they make do not add up.

They are morally and intellectually bankrupt.

It's not really very snappy, is it?

"non transwoman are women"
"non transmen are men"
"non non binary people are ... "

non non
non non non non
non non there's no limits.

non non limits
we'll reach for the guy!
no vulva too deep, no manchin too wide

non non non non non non
non non limits, won't give up the fight
we do what we want and we do it with pride

I always think of it like a recursive function...

function isWoman(person)
{
return isMan(person) ? True: False
}

function isMan(person)
{
return isWoman(person) ? True: False
}

Let me hear you say Yeah!

Hard to the core, I feel the pelvic floor
When I'm on the stage, yo, yo'll ask for more

I'm on the ass, I know the last
I work real hard do you like my cash
Tick tick ticka tick take your time
When I'm goin' I'm goin' for mine

Open your ears and you will hear it
I tell you this 'cause there's no limit!

@Blibbyblobby

I always think of it like a recursive function...

function isWoman(person)
{
return isMan(person) ? True: False
}

function isMan(person)
{
return isWoman(person) ? True: False
}

Ah bugger, debug time!

function isWoman(person)
{
return isMan(person) ? False: True
}

function isMan(person)
{
return isWoman(person) ? False: True
}

I feel that this thread may have gone a bit Late Night.

I am still getting my head around the thought that a poster honestly thinks that females run solely on estrogen, and that a male having their dick turned inward is for all intents a vagina.

Ok. So… that cosmetically modified male can confidently be the recipient of a blood donation from a female who has been pregnant during their life?

If that male arrives in A&E with a heart attack should the doctors check against the symptoms and test results of a female?

No. A male is in not just a surgically and hormonally adjusted female. Their entire body remains male with bits removed, moved, repurposed and some synthetic hormones added. They are unique and many transwomen don’t have their penises removed or their testes. So if they stop the artificial hormones, their own cells coding takes back over to produce the hormones they made before.

It is reckless and offensive to perpetuate that a male is just like a female with fertility issues. It is leveraging the medical conditions of others for that male person’s wish. And in the end, it can cause someone great harm if they truly believed this.

Some interesting lyrics there Arabella….

Hahaha have you lot been on the wine?!

Earl Grey, mostly.

Laced with...?

I can't understand the maths Bibbity.

Is that because I'm a non-man?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Laced with...?

@GromblesofGrimbledon

I am really invested in all of this and have been following the growth of gender ideology in western society for years now. I keep an eye on what's happening on a near-daily basis and do what I can to fight the tide of this insanity. I read a lot about what's going on and I feel like I know my stuff.

But sometimes I get those moments...

You know the kind... when you're on a train and staring out of the window at everything rushing by and your eyes glaze over like you're looking at a magic eye picture, and suddenly you feel a sort of out-of-body, or extra-conscious realisation that everything is fucking weird. Existence itself seems to hang in the moment in a fragile bubble. You realise that everything is just atoms held together in the form of reality and it's unreal for a moment as the magnitude of an entire universe becomes clear to you right there and then...

And then you shake your head as though to clear the cotton wool from your brain and suddenly you're back to normal, never to achieve that strange meditative state again no matter how hard you consciously try to...

I get moments of realisation like that where I think "why the fucking fuck are we still even talking about this for fuck sake how much fucking mileage can we get out of the simplest facts of reality Jesus fucking Christ I'm so sick of it all!!!"

Then I shake the cotton wool from my brain and sign another petition and listen to another podcast.

Transwomen are not women.
Transmen are not men.

Ah the bliss if that could be the end of the discussion.

Squints really hard at magic eye picture.

Yep.

Thanks for the D Mob link. I couldn’t remember what it was called or who the artist was but wanted to add it to a playlist. MN has everything!

....Or, to quote Shania Twain:

Man: "I feel like a woman."

Plenty GC people openly stated that they want to put an end to the very idea of being transgender. What is that, if not extinction?

Ridiculous straw man.

Professionals and parents are rightly questioning the narrative as there's so much potential for harm.

Physical and emotional, to an individual's body and to groups of women and children.

Plenty of people live with gender dysphoria without transitioning. A number of trans women use male spaces, out of respect for women.

If you had a society that was truly holistic, accepting of non confirming and same sex attraction, no gender stereotyping, male violence was eliminated and mental health was effectively dealt with, trans people would be rare if at all.

"GC people" don't exist.

Plenty GC people openly stated that they want to put an end to the very idea of being transgender. What is that, if not extinction?

Hyperbole.

Plenty of GC people openly state that people should express themselves however they wish to. However, they don’t agree that males who identify as women should have access to wimen’s rights. They don’t agree that males who identify as women are ‘just the same as women’.

And, and this is hugely important, they don’t agree in the affirming only treatment being campaigned for, because we recognise that there are many young females, including our very own daughters, being swept under an umbrella where their unique and very specific needs are ignored.

Their needs are being leveraged for the political gain of males which is as old as time. But now we see our daughter’s mental health needs shunted so males who have less negative health risks can seek earlier and earlier intervention.

Yet we still see this emotionally manipulative ‘all or nothing’ tactic used by people who either are completely unable to see the truth, or have other priorities and think these points and others and inconveniences.

It must be infuriating when the hyperbole is countered time and again with logic and considered answers that can be supported with statistics and figures, with studies and papers.

@Helleofabore yep. I've seen so many posters say that they've initially come here because they've heard that it's an evil, transphobic nest and they wanted to show us all how wrong we are. They instead are met with articulate, reasoned posters who give links to policies and research to back up their concerns about the clash between women's rights and trans' rights. On the other side - 'you just want trans people to not exist!', 'you're so mean', 'why are you so obsessed with toilets'. No attempt to actually meet points with evidence or any kind of argument but hyperbole and mantras which inevitably turns into slurs and threats because we won't just 'be kind' and agree with the erosion of women's rights. It must be frustrating for them, being away from twitter where you can block people or shout them down with one word/line mantras, to be here where other posters can challenge what they've said.

@GromblesofGrimbledon

Perfectly stated, brava.

@Jaysmith71

....Or, to quote Shania Twain:

Man: "I feel like a woman."

Ooh! Did ya cut yourself? So very sharp

@Blibbyblobby 🤣🤣