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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Incels as terrorists

34 replies

AssassinatedBeauty · 13/08/2021 11:04

The shootings yesterday were apparently carried out by a man who posted youtube videos about his affinity with incel ideology, as well as rants about women. Yet all the reporting about this is quite clear to state that the shootings aren't "terror related". Are women and girls as a specific target group not subject to the same considerations as everyone else?? If this man was part of an ideological group that professed hate for non-white people, or people of a certain religion then these crimes would be considered as terrorism.

OP posts:
334bu · 13/08/2021 11:08

Not sure about England but hatred of woman is not covered by the Hate Crime Bill in Scotland.

Flaxmeadow · 13/08/2021 11:54

I managed to see some of his twisted self obsessed "me me me, poor me" ramblings on his YouTube before it was taken down about an hour ago.

You're right OP. I whole heartedly agree with you

NonnyMouse1337 · 13/08/2021 12:24

When Engender held an online event about the Hate Crime Bill in Scotland, I raised this point at the time - that by not including sex in the list of characteristics, we won't be able to rightfully frame crimes against women like incel attacks as hate crimes. They had no response to that and kept insisting it wasn't a good idea to include sex in the HCB because blah blah something something in USA study means this is a bad idea. Better to be a standalone offence. 🙄
They were unable to explain why it was a good thing for other characteristics to be on the HCB but somehow it didn't work for sex.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 13/08/2021 12:28

@AssassinatedBeauty

The shootings yesterday were apparently carried out by a man who posted youtube videos about his affinity with incel ideology, as well as rants about women. Yet all the reporting about this is quite clear to state that the shootings aren't "terror related". Are women and girls as a specific target group not subject to the same considerations as everyone else?? If this man was part of an ideological group that professed hate for non-white people, or people of a certain religion then these crimes would be considered as terrorism.
Thread with some discussion about this: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4321835-Its-not-terrorism-Plymouth-title-edited-by-MNHQ-at-OPs-request
SmokedDuck · 13/08/2021 12:42

I said this on the other thread. It's only terrorism if the aim is political.

A lot of what is called terrorism in the media is really more like guerrilla warfare, or insurgency, or criminal acts, even an act of war, and a lot of "terrorists" are really insurgents or revolutionaries or plain old criminals.

Terrorism has a specific meaning, different from these things, within international conventions and within the laws of war. This meaning has been purposefully undermined, and part of that is spreading this idea that terrorism is somehow the worst possible kind of thing.

But it's actually a very targeted attempt to change language, because for nations, there are a lot of rules about how you have to treat enemy combatants and soldiers. Most of these don't apply to terrorists. So you are free to keep them in detention without charge, torture them, etc. (Though less so if they are citizens born in the country they are operating in which case they have to be treated as citizens.)

AssassinatedBeauty · 13/08/2021 12:49

The UK Terrorism Act from 2000 defines terrorism as the use or threat made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause (with "racial" having been added in 2009). The incel movement is an ideological cause. It hasn't been just about politics for the last 20 odd years or so.

I agree that the US (and others) has a motive for wanting to rename its enemies as terrorists to avoid having to treat them as prisoners of war, and to enable practices like extraordinary rendition. But that is nothing to do with this.

OP posts:
1Endeavour2 · 13/08/2021 13:18

Clearly not.
There are many men who would empathize with the Taliban men in Afghanistan. God help their women and girls.

Tomatobear · 13/08/2021 14:24

I agree that if it had been any other group the media would be shouting about the injustice from the hill tops. It's really sad.

catzwhiskas · 13/08/2021 18:48

Being discussed on the TV news. Incels, misogyny etc. I think MN has been consulted. About time

HopeClearwater · 13/08/2021 19:25

Laura Bates on the news now, speaking the truth about misogyny.

HopeClearwater · 13/08/2021 19:28

...followed by news saying that about two/thirds of Afghanistan is now controlled by the Taliban. Goodbye to decent medical care for girls and women there then.

GlomOfNit · 13/08/2021 22:12

I'm still undecided on this - I see some very compelling reasons to term this a 'terrorist' outrage but it does seem pretty haphazard and indiscriminatory. I suppose we have to wait on further investigation (if those questions are actually asked of the evidence Hmm ) and see if this individual had a stated motive for going out and doing these atrocious things. Posting on incel forums doesn't, sadly, mean he did this in imitation of incel atrocities elsewhere in the world.

But the BBC news at 10 did just ask exactly this - is he to be regarded as a terrorist and is it right to talk of 'incel ideology' as terrorist? I'm actually quite surprised!

PaterPower · 13/08/2021 22:12

The police and media were just trying to stop people jumping to conclusions about the racial profile of the perpetrator, and thereby preventing reprisal attacks.

Many of you are saying you “knew what it was” once terrorism had been ruled out, but I bet almost all of you initially thought that it was something closer to the attacks we’ve seen in London (as I did)

Tanith · 13/08/2021 22:31

"Many of you are saying you “knew what it was” once terrorism had been ruled out, but I bet almost all of you initially thought that it was something closer to the attacks we’ve seen in London (as I did)"

Not in Plymouth.
I remember Hungerford. My first thought was that this was something similar. Michael Ryan shot his mother first, too.

thethoughtfox · 13/08/2021 22:48

@HopeClearwater

Laura Bates on the news now, speaking the truth about misogyny.
I'm halfway through Men Who Hate Women just now and immediately thought of this. Apparently most/ all of these terrorist style attackers have a history of domestic violence/ hating women online.
HotPenguin · 13/08/2021 23:02

Back in the 70s and 80s terrorist groups were well organised with clear political demands. That's all changed since 9/11. We've had terrorist acts committed without any clear demands or obvious motive, other than generalised hatred of a particular nationality/religious group/ belief system. We've seen individuals acting alone described as "inspired by" Al Qaeda. I think the definition of what terrorism is has changed a lot and what happened in Plymouth looks to me very similar to other acts that have been described as terrorism - basically individuals lashing out against others in despicable ways, driven by twisted beliefs but without any clear objectives or goal in mind.

HopeClearwater · 13/08/2021 23:21

Many of you are saying you “knew what it was” once terrorism had been ruled out, but I bet almost all of you initially thought that it was something closer to the attacks we’ve seen in London (as I did)

No. Not in Plymouth. I immediately thought ‘family annihilation’ - sadly that probably is the explanation for the deaths in Kidderminster. Male policeman and small child.

DoctorTwo · 13/08/2021 23:24

I agree, this man was a terrorist.

SmokedDuck · 14/08/2021 00:15

@AssassinatedBeauty

The UK Terrorism Act from 2000 defines terrorism as the use or threat made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause (with "racial" having been added in 2009). The incel movement is an ideological cause. It hasn't been just about politics for the last 20 odd years or so.

I agree that the US (and others) has a motive for wanting to rename its enemies as terrorists to avoid having to treat them as prisoners of war, and to enable practices like extraordinary rendition. But that is nothing to do with this.

I disagree that the general widening of the term is unrelated by the move to allow governments to treat a wider and wider group of activities as terrorism. The government of the UK hasn't been innocent in this either.

But even within this definition, you have to differentiate things like criminal acts from terrorism, and the marker is around trying to create political, or you might say institutional, change. So politics, even in the larger sense that includes religion or ideology.

But that's not the same as someone who is say, trying to kill women because he hates them, or even a member of a religious or political group which is just trying to strike a direct blow for their cause.

If terrorism isn't differentiated from warfare, or insurgency, or criminal acts, you lose the ability to talk about any of those things clearly, and to deal with them under the law.

A young fellow, even one frequenting incel websites, who goes out and commits a crime in his own country, is a criminal, and should be subject to the criminal justice system, including it's protections, As soon as he's labeled as a terrorist, there is room to treat him differently, including removing those protections. There are a lot of implications there.

It's also not just a UK issue, as terms like terrorism have international implications.

GAHgamel · 14/08/2021 03:18

@HopeClearwater

Many of you are saying you “knew what it was” once terrorism had been ruled out, but I bet almost all of you initially thought that it was something closer to the attacks we’ve seen in London (as I did)

No. Not in Plymouth. I immediately thought ‘family annihilation’ - sadly that probably is the explanation for the deaths in Kidderminster. Male policeman and small child.

Same here, although the first report I saw didn't mention the guy in Plymouth's age, so I was guessing middle aged bloke who'd killed his (estranged/ex) wife and kids.
quixote9 · 14/08/2021 07:34

Of course they're not terrorists. They attack creatures who don't feel pain that counts. Women. Not real people.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 14/08/2021 08:34

Jonathan Hall QC, the terrorism watchdog, last month referred to the threat from terrrorism becoming 'more blurred' where it is 'hard to distinguish between what is conventionally understood as terrorism and what is not.'

He said there were 'considerable difficulties' in identifying whether desires to kill expressed online, particularly when expressed by the young, will translate into acts of terrorism in real life.

'If there is an ideological component, and I think there may well be one, it is a nihilism which seeks the end of days,' he said.

'It has something akin to the revolution of the unhappy or the 'beta uprising' carried out by incels or involuntary celibates.'

archive of article: archive.is/vICpA

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9891119/The-rising-threat-incels-Plymouth-gunman-expressed-solidarity-misogynistic-movement.html

Lessthanaballpark · 14/08/2021 09:11

I have to say the comments on that Daily Mail article are encouraging. I was expecting lots of “feminism is to blame” tripe but no.

Jaysmith71 · 14/08/2021 09:20

The way forward here is to look at this the way we do the question of "Torture." Following the cases involving the British Army in NI in the 70s, the definition of torture was kept narrow, but the concept of 'inhuman and/or degrading treatment' conistent with the methods and practices of torture was added to the various laws and conventions as a lesser bar.

urbanbuddha · 14/08/2021 14:20

According to Jonathan Hall QC, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, the government is likely to consider treating so-called “incels” as terrorists.

Hall told the BBC Radio 4 Today programme: “The question is really whether or not the authorities want to treat the incel phenomenon as a terrorist risk. That would involve diverting resources or putting resources into it. If we see more of these sorts of attacks, then I have got no doubt that it will be treated more seriously as terrorism.”

Not exactly comforting. I wonder how many more attacks the government consider necessary.