Pronouns

[leafinthewind]

DD (12) wears her hair short and goes by a unisex shortening of her name. She can't easily be mistaken for a boy, though, because of her body-shape.

She's at a sporty summer activity this week. She was asked for her pronouns four times on the first day. She was amused, and reported this back to me in the same way that she used to report being mistaken for a boy (before her breasts grew). I'll bet that no-one matching all the sex stereotypes was asked, though. To me, it's just another way of telling her that she's not meeting society's expectations of women and girls. She's strong enough to have been resisting this shit since she cut her hair five years ago, but it still makes me crazy. I just wanted to say that aloud somewhere. 3/4 of the askers were other kids - so I don't want anyone to get the idea that I think this is being done 'on purpose'. This is mostly kids being kids - but they're being primed by adults, and I don't like it.

The pronouns shit really is shit for normal gender non conforming kids who aren't playing the game.

FFS!!!! this is appalling. They are pushing the idea that there is only one way to be a girl. I am so so angry on your DD response. Well done on supporting your daughter

Where are these kids getting this from?! Who is telling them they should be asking? Can't ever imagine asking anyone. When you talk to someone directly then "your" is surely appropriate.

“You don’t fit”, “we don’t know what you are” is definitely one of the ways it comes across. One of many reasons it’s a fucking stupid thing to ask anyone. “What’s your name?” is perfectly adequate. Pronouns are only used behind people’s backs so I couldn’t give a toss what anyone refers to me as, I won’t hear them.

When adults ask it’s an easy way to know they’re not someone you wish to associate with a second longer than necessary. Of all the questions to ask when meeting someone it’s the most pointless.

Why is it so difficult for people to accept that some children/young people are just non-conforming to the stupid stereotyped expectations of them prescribed by society??

Short hair! Totally normal for girls and women, yet apparently now it's a sign that you're not feminine enough to be a girl/woman.

If the adult that asked her was a staff member of activity club I'd be having words with them about stereotypes and how harmful they can be to young people.

This is another clear reason why all the pronoun shite should be dropped.

TW controlling men push for pronouns to 'play' being a women, but the nonsense is used by bullies to attack others.

I'm sure that other girls who happen to look more traditionally feminine are not being asked this. It happens to (glorious butch lesbian) adults too. Is your daughter feeling OK? Can the adults around stress that this isn't a necessary question?

3/4 of the askers were 14 and under, so children. Most of the adults are very young - student age, at a guess. They won't see it as pandering to/encouraging stereotypes. My impression is that they think it's OK to ask because they've learned about it on the internet and at school, and they aren't really conscious of only asking gender non-conformers. (By the way, I don't think of DD as gender non-conforming - she wears her hair short and that's it. But it seems like that's enough.) Maybe they're almost imagining that they could see it floating around DD's head like an Insta header or an email signature?!

Adults in my experience are the ones who teach the kids to do this, either explicitly or through example.

The kids don't necessarily mean to be unkind, but they've been taught that kids that do certain things probably may have different pronouns.

The adults think they are being clued in and progressive.

It doesn't matter if the adults are young. They are working with children, and they need to be aware of this kind of issue. It could be really damaging for a child that is struggling with fitting in and being different to the "norm".

I don't think it's just gender ideology pushing this. In recent years the whole way social media has developed has encouraged people to pin labels on themselves in a way that makes it far easier to be targeted, whether that's by marketing (advertising stuff to you) or by groups with a political agenda. Young people in particular have been schooled into merrily putting what were once private details about themselves out there on a plate for all the world to see, making it easier for these groups to find them. They're livestock being farmed.

My daughter started university last year. She got utterly sick of being asked her pronouns. I guess it’s because people are trying to be polite. They’ve probably been told that misgendering someone is the worst thing in the universe.

One day this eye-rollery will pass, then teenagers will find some other nonsense to wind themselves up over. In the meantime, I am glad to hear your daughter was able to laugh at it, as was mine.

AssassinatedBeauty I see what you're saying but I actually agree with SmokedDuck and AnyOldPrion. I'm not going to act on my annoyance, because I think it wouldn't be productive. I'm going to stick with reminding DD that we ARE our bodies - we're complicated bio-electro-chemical organisms which manifest a strange evolutionary side-effect we call consciousness. Then we talk about it. A lot. The people who asked DD for her pronouns think of themselves as trying to be nice - the same way that gentlemen who held doors for women thought of themselves as trying to be nice. I'm not going to lecture them this week.

I also agree with IvyTwines2 - that's what was in my head when I wrote about imagining DD's pronouns flashing above her head as if they were on Insta!

Faceicle DD is totally fine. She knows it's not a necessary question - as she says, pronouns are used behind a back not to a face!

I'm going to stick with reminding DD that we ARE our bodies - we're complicated bio-electro-chemical organisms which manifest a strange evolutionary side-effect we call consciousness. Then we talk about it. A lot.

Well put!

I have a 16yo dd who started off with just short hair, but now considers herself to be non-binary (going by the pronouns on her Instagram account), and is against 'assuming people's gender'. What I want to say to her is 'Non-binary isn't a thing. People don't need to assign themselves a new gender category just because they don't tick all the sex stereotype boxes. Fgs, on that basis most people are non-binary!'. But I bite my tongue and bide my time.

Smacks of 'how do you want us to refer to you when we talk about behind your back" - eugh

lazylinguist I wish I could bite my tongue more often! I don't think arguing directly with the "be kind" teens is the way forward. They think people should be allowed any labels they choose for themselves, and that's hard to argue with directly. It's not a problem to call Alex 'they' and 'NB' if that's what Alex calls themselves. The problem is that it bleeds into everything else...

DD1 (13 and with a short asymmetric hairstyle) happily reported that since her breasts grew she was only asked if she was a boy twice this year at her summer sports club. She did say she did quickly whipped off of her baggy tshirt in the changing rooms to show off her boobs in her cropped top though . Thankfully the bulk of the staff have been there years and know her so no pronoun nonsense from them.

Exactly. I think that for some of these girls and young women the scales might not fall from their eyes until they become mothers. One of the things that's hugely frustrating is the way they swallow hook, line and sinker the idea that GC feminists are all for gender stereotypes and putting people in boxes, while the gender movement is about people having the freedom to be their true self. You only need to glance at some of the 're-education' material on gender identity to see that the opposite is true. Prefer Barbies to tractors and trucks? You must actually be a girl, son!

Ha! JaninaDuszejko I think my DD was also pleased that 'Are you a boy?' questions could be knocked on the head! It caused a certain amount of eye-rolling when they were replaced with the pronoun question! She does definitely want to be kind, and she doesn't mind me being asked. It's only me that objects!

lazylinguist I didn't really get it until I gave birth either...

Where are these kids getting this from?! Who is telling them they should be asking

They are, in at least some instances, taught explicitly at school that this is the polite thing to do.

They get it from Tumblr and all the other SM sites like that. If they’re not on those themselves, they get fed all those daft labels by their peers. What’s weird is that words like ‘Demi-boy’, ‘a romantic’ etc etc were there more than 10 years ago. I remember a younger friend laughing at them and saying how ridiculous they were, but now if she was the same age she’d probably have the whole label string and pronouns herself.

My DD laughed when someone asked her pronouns and told them that was “so regressive” (she got that from me 😀 ). Interestingly, her friendship group are now noticeably less keen on labels than their peers. Sunlight and discussion helped a lot.

Lazylinguist that crap about GC people being pro-stereotypes enrages me too. You see it all over Twitter. Some, like KM, do it on purpose, I think. It’s a strategy to make sure nobody like my DD and her friends listen to us. Having said that, a huge number of Americans seem to think that’s what it means - that we like gender stereotypes. I read a thread where one was explaining to another that GC people simply attach the gender stereotypes to sex 🙄 🙄

Just posting this TikTok which has attracted much pride in twitter as an example of a girl who is proud to be a girl but not an obviously feminine one.

vm.tiktok.com/ZMR1bnvms/

Looks like she gets asked annoying questions in the restroom but seems confident enough not to take offence.
A great example and role model for young girls who want to do their own thing.

vm.tiktok.com/ZMR1bfVob/

Lazylinguist that crap about GC people being pro-stereotypes enrages me too. You see it all over Twitter. Some, like KM, do it on purpose, I think. It’s a strategy to make sure nobody like my DD and her friends listen to us. Having said that, a huge number of Americans seem to think that’s what it means - that we like gender stereotypes. I read a thread where one was explaining to another that GC people simply attach the gender stereotypes to sex

I read an article linked on another thread which was saying that the GC movement needs a proper name. A better name. Better branding. It irritates me that the truth should even need branding, but I see the point, when faced with the relentless propaganda machine of the TRA brigade.