Boys school and Transgirls

[OurMamInHavianas]

I’m wondering if a transgirl can apply to a all-boys school?
Don’t girls typically perform better in exams in primary/early secondary, so any entrance exam or 11 plus/12 plus/13 plus exams would favour a female-born person.
So, we could end up with some boys’ school being populated with a large percentage of female-born people?

Just asking out of interest - this doesn’t affect me or my family personally.

Boys' schools would worry about the safety of the TB and the dignity of the boys (so the TB would be denied entry to a place that 'matched their gender'.

Girl's' schools would (have -as in this has happened) worry about the safety of TG - so girls would have to budge over.

See a pattern here?

@theThreeofWeevils

We’re not allowed to use the clearerterms used elsewhere on this forum No, you just got it 180° wrong. Your concern is pesky biological females colonising boys' selective schools, or have I also misunderstood?

Genuine error. I don’t think biological females are “pesky”.

With boys being allowed to join girls guides, and men taking places in women’s sports, and, as a previous poster mentioned, men being allowed to stay in the men-only Freemasons even if they say they are a woman. But women saying they are a man are not allowed to inherit titles such as lordships.

It seems the male-born people get to do what they like, but the girls and women don’t. I was interested to see how it would work with school places in single-sex schools.

That 'assigned male at birth' - rather than simply 'male' - would lead to them being discriminatory if a male child with a VSD which had led to him being misidentified as female at birth and only correctly diagnosed at puberty. This probably shouldn't happen nowadays in the U.K. but it isn't impossible.

I would question the sanity of a parent who attempted this tbh. Their female child wouldn't exactly be safe on the sports field or getting changed.

I would hope that any boys identifying as girls whatever that actually means would be supported and allowed to explore their identity amongst their friends at the boys school.

What I worry will.happen is as with prisons. That boys will get the best of both worlds, that they can choose to remain where they are in the boys school as males do in the masons. And then they can pick what female oriented establishments they can also attend if they wish.

Usually boys get to keep their spaces and girls have theirs made mixed sex.

But I thought gender reassignment only legally applied to adults. For anyone under 18, the protected characteristics of gender reassignment doesn't exist so boys schools wouldn't have to admit any girls and vice versa with girls schools.

The protected characteristic of gender reassignment applies to all ages but doesn't mean they must be treated as the sex they identify with. It means you can't exclude a boy who identifies as a girl from a boys school or rugby team. You can't require a transgirl to sit at the back of the class or not allow them on a day out. You don't need to let them join the girls team or get changed in the girls changing room as that would discriminatory towards girls and a breach of safeguarding.

Letting boys who identify as girls into a girls school but not boys who identify as boys would be discrimination against boys who identify as boys on the basis of gender reassignment. Schools may discriminate entry on the basis of sex (for single sex schools) and age and academic ability.

But I thought gender reassignment only legally applied to adults. For anyone under 18, the protected characteristics of gender reassignment doesn't exist so boys schools wouldn't have to admit any girls and vice versa with girls schools.

This is what makes it difficult legally. As a PP said, the legal definition of "gender reassignment" is very vague, and includes individuals who are planning to change gender:

"A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex."

So a competent lawyer could argue that a 13-year old could have gender reassignment as a protected characteristic.

However, we also know that there are single-sex exemptions under the Equality Act. I'm not sure if schools would fall under this.

You don't need to let them join the girls team or get changed in the girls changing room as that would discriminatory towards girls and a breach of safeguarding

Unfortunately things like this seem to be an "easy fix" for schools.

Given what many schools struggle with sue to societal intake vs a complete lack.of funding ( yeah tories thanks for that ) , I worry these kids are being used by schools to show their diversity /inclusion status.

Uts something they can do very easily and get a certificate. It's seen as something "positive" to advertise , that's easily achievable. I worry for the kids being used that way it's not for their benefit.

However, we also know that there are single-sex exemptions under the Equality Act. I'm not sure if schools would fall under this.

I'd have thought that was the only legal basis for there being single sex schools at all. There's certainly no basis for ' single gender' ones (or single gender anything at all)

@PinkPlantCase

The 11+ exam generally favours boys. Even in the mixed grammar schools in our area there are more boys than girls because they tend to get higher test score on the types of questions in the 11+

I'm pretty sure that isn't the case. I know that when I was sitting the 11+, there wasn't a fixed pass mark, but the top 20% of boys and the top 20% of girls passed the exam, and that girls had to get a higher mark than boys to achieve the same result. I vaguely remember that there was a legal challenge on grounds of sex discrimination a few years later and the whole system in Northern Ireland was changed. At the time it was justified on the grounds that 11year old girls were more mature than 11 year old boys, who would catch up later.

If this stuff worked as it often seems to in formerly-for-women organisations and spaces, a simple declaration of "non-binariness" from a girl should suffice to gain entry, right? A token thing to make you not a "cis girl"?

Except somehow "men and non-binary people" is a pairing that never seems to happen.

Something's not fully symmetrical here.

@RoyalCorgi

But I thought gender reassignment only legally applied to adults. For anyone under 18, the protected characteristics of gender reassignment doesn't exist so boys schools wouldn't have to admit any girls and vice versa with girls schools.

This is what makes it difficult legally. As a PP said, the legal definition of "gender reassignment" is very vague, and includes individuals who are planning to change gender:

"A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex."

So a competent lawyer could argue that a 13-year old could have gender reassignment as a protected characteristic.

However, we also know that there are single-sex exemptions under the Equality Act. I'm not sure if schools would fall under this.

Gender reassignment does not mean they must be treated as the opposite sex.

Anywhere that is single sex (toilets, hospital wards, schools) are already making use of single sex exemptions under the Equality Act - otherwise they would be mixed sex

I agree that the terms transwomen, transmen, transgirls etc can be confusing, as they sound like they mean the opposite. Unfortunately, you can influence people's views a lot by controlling the language and putting particular words into use.
Perhaps we should use unambiguous terms such as "OMAB transpeople"(Observed-male-at-birth) and "OFAB transpeople". Not as snappy though.

*Gender reassignment does not mean they must be treated as the opposite sex.

Anywhere that is single sex (toilets, hospital wards, schools) are already making use of single sex exemptions under the Equality Act - otherwise they would be mixed sex*

Thanks, Titbom. I think I was getting gender reassignment mixed up with having a GRC. I think. Yes, absolutely about someone gender reassignment not being treated as opposite sex and EA exemptions. My OP was a tad clumsy.

Tibtom

I have a trans DD (who wants to be a boy) and she wanted to go to a boys' school for 6th form! We obviously said no. However it turned out she had already approached the boys' without us knowing. Iinterestingly in discussion with the boys' school (and this is one of the country's top boys' schools) they said that they woulddn't have had any problems accepting 'him' (my DD)

she had already approached the boys' school*

That’s nuts @felinefoxy, I wonder what steps they planned to keep her safe??

Was it a private school?

Talk about selling a lie to parents. Outs all the kids in a position they shouldn't be in. And the parents are being lied to about the school.

There must be some kinda legal issue there ?

Yes, a famous private school

Our nearest school is all girls, and by all accounts very woke. I really want to ask them if pupils who transition are asked to leave the school. Because if they aren't, it suggest that either the school doesn't really "believe" they've transitioned, or it's no longer a single sex school (which is a big "selling point" for them).

Wow, FelineFoxy. That's interesting. I think girls who identify as trans have no idea of the risks they're taking. They are very very naive in assuming they will be accepted as male by their peers. I would expect the school to be aware of the risks, though.

@GreeboIsMySpiritAnimal

Our nearest school is all girls, and by all accounts very woke. I really want to ask them if pupils who transition are asked to leave the school. Because if they aren't, it suggest that either the school doesn't really "believe" they've transitioned, or it's no longer a single sex school (which is a big "selling point" for them).

Most girls schools care deeply about the girls and if they wish to transition they will be supported. Not asked to leave.

If they cared deeply about teenage girls they wouldn't be encouraging them in such damaging nonsense.

My DD has always been taught that she can do whatever she likes, dress how she likes (so long as it's weather appropriate!) and present herself however she likes. She's not a "typical girl" by any means. But she is a girl, and will become a woman. Changing pronouns and binding her breasts will not change that.

Most girls schools care deeply about the girls and if they wish to transition they will be supported. Not asked to leave.

What are they supporting them to transition to? Boys? If so then why aren't they asking them to leave? If they don't believe transitioning will turn them into boys then why are they encouraging girls to follow a harmful pathway of binders, drugs, and surgery which changes nothing?