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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Help me with the definitions please!

47 replies

Violet9 · 08/08/2021 15:05

Ok, I've been trying to figure this out by myself with searching and reading online resources, but can anyone help me out here:

Is it possible to be trans (born female but identifies as male), non binary and lesbian at the same time?

Wouldn't being trans mean that you're not non binary, because you are identifying with one sex (male) rather than as non binary not identifying with either sex? If you're a trans boy (this is an 11 year old I'm talking about), can you be a lesbian, considering that you no longer identify as a female - so you're then not a female attracted to other females anymore? Also, saying you're asexual and lesbian, if lesbians are females sexually attracted to other females - can you also be asexual considering no sexual feelings are involved? Please help me unpick and understand this!

OP posts:
NecessaryScene · 08/08/2021 15:14

Is it possible to be trans (born female but identifies as male), non binary and lesbian at the same time?

In this movement you can be anything you want - labels are self-applied, and everyone can have their own meaning for the labels.

You'll get more stability of flags than meanings for each word.

I get the impression that words are chosen a bit like "moods" - like the rejection or adoption of "woman" it's the associations of the word that are latched on to rather than a concrete meaning.

Maybe some of the visitors who believe in this stuff currently prowling the grounds could help say something more specific, but I think they'd say something like "it's up to every individual to choose their own identity".

EyesOpening · 08/08/2021 15:21

Hi, trans supposedly is one huge umbrella, under which, non-binary comes.
As for the rest, in newspeak -
lesbian is a non-man (as in gender, not sex) attracted to non-man (therefore a female NB could be a lesbian, even if they're with a male)
no idea about the asexual thing
(as it doesn't really make sense but then nothing seems to make sense with this newspeak)

Doyoumind · 08/08/2021 15:25

This sounds like a child who is very confused. I would leave them to grow out of the identity stuff but would be concerned about what is going on in their life that they feel the need to apply so many 'validating' labels to themselves at such an early age.

AfternoonToffee · 08/08/2021 15:35

Is the 11 year old saying they are asexual? If so, they shouldn't have any concept of what it means having a) not gone through puberty and b) being 11.

BluebirdsSong · 08/08/2021 15:44

@Violet9
"Is it possible to be trans (born female but identifies as male), non binary and lesbian at the same time?"

Trans means gender identity being different from the one assigned at birth; non-binary people fall under that umbrella.

Non-binary is not necessarily a seperate "third gender", but rather an umbrella term of its own that indicates someone falling somewhere outside of the binary categories, but can still be closed to one or the other. Rebecca Sugar, for instance, describes herself as a non-binary woman.
www.reddit.com/r/stevenuniverse/comments/918yea/rebecca_sugar_explains_what_being_a_nonbinary/

The transness aspect is a bit diminished with AFAB non-binary women and AMAB non-binary men, but they're not exactly cis either.

Non-binary lesbians is another thing, and it's usually defined as feminine-aligned non-binary people attracted to women and feminine-aligned people.
www.ygender.org.au/article/proud-non-binary-lesbian
lgbta.wikia.org/wiki/Non-Binary_Lesbian

Whether or not you consider these to be legitimate, that's what these terms are considered to mean.

EyesOpening · 08/08/2021 15:51

“gender identity being different from the one assigned at birth”

Who assigns this gender identity at birth?

TheWeeDonkey · 08/08/2021 15:52

I'd say the defining part of this is that the person in question is 11.

I don't know about you but I was hella confused at that age, just let them grown through it without pressure to label their feelings because they change so much during puberty. They'll get where they need to be eventually.

BluebirdsSong · 08/08/2021 15:53

@EyesOpening

“gender identity being different from the one assigned at birth”

Who assigns this gender identity at birth?

Doctors, parents, third parties in general. Gender identity is typically assigned to kids based on their genitals.
EyesOpening · 08/08/2021 15:55

Gender identity is supposedly an inner feeling, how can someone assign you an inner feeling?

FloralBunting · 08/08/2021 15:57

OP, if a person is born female and is solely sexually oriented to other females, then yes, she's a lesbian. She may also identify as something under the trans umbrella, and non-binary is one of these identity labels. 'Trans' is considered the over arching term, whereas 'non-binary' would be more specifically about he not feeling that she was a woman or a man, according to what she perceives those terms as.

So yes, just as someone can be a lesbian and Catholic, or a Lesbian and believe in a flat earth, someone can be a lesbian who is trans and non binary.

EyesOpening · 08/08/2021 15:58

“describes herself as a non-binary woman.”

Sounds like a Boris statement “go out but don’t go out”

R0wantrees · 08/08/2021 15:59

I would focus on the fact this is an eleven year old child. However girls who come to recognise they are lesbians (same sex orientated) will also be gender-non conforming. Within the confines and constructs of gender identity ideology this means they may well be identified as trans and/or non-binary. If/when this happens the female same-sex oriented person is redesignated as heterosexual.

Queer theory and gender identity ideology are not age-appropriate for children barely out of Primary School.

BluebirdsSong · 08/08/2021 15:59

@EyesOpening

Gender identity is supposedly an inner feeling, how can someone assign you an inner feeling?
They don't, they guess based on genitals. They assume the kid will be cis non-trans, just as they usually assume the kid will be straight.
PhiRhoSigma · 08/08/2021 15:59

Why would regular 11year olds even be thinking about this sort of stuff?
Sounds like tmi too soon.

PhiRhoSigma · 08/08/2021 16:04

BluebirdsSong

Who is 'they'?
We knew the sex of our children at birth (quite a bit before, even).

We made no other assumptions at all in raising them. Please don't make sweeping generalisations.

merrymouse · 08/08/2021 16:08

@Doyoumind

This sounds like a child who is very confused. I would leave them to grow out of the identity stuff but would be concerned about what is going on in their life that they feel the need to apply so many 'validating' labels to themselves at such an early age.
Agree.

It sounds similar to identifying with a social group like goths or punks in the 80s and 90s. In saying that I’m really not trying to undermine the importance of feeling part of a social group. However I’d be wondering whether an 11 year old was feeling isolated in other ways.

I’d also be concerned that an 11 year old were defining as asexual. It’s normal to be uninterested in sex at 11.

Chickenyhead · 08/08/2021 16:12

OK OP,

I'm not going to try to interpret any of the gender ideology stuff, because I'm not an expert and I don't believe in it. So instead, I will give you my experience.

My DD was a lesbian, she has known this for a long time. But her girlfriend identified as a transman. At this point my DD declared herself to be Pansexual, being attracted to the individual, despite the sex organs involved. My DD has now also identified as a transman, but remains Pansexual.

She no longer accepts the word lesbian as applying as despite them both having female bodies, they don't consider themselves to be women, hence cannot be lesbian.

Not sure why they don't consider themselves gay, but that's their choice. Not mine.

At 11, she is exploring labels. Hopefully she is not experiencing those labels. It is worth checking her Internet access and what she is being taught. It may also be good to talk to her about having her whole life to choose those labels, if she wants. It isnt a race to the end.

EyesOpening · 08/08/2021 16:14

Why would a doctor/midwife guess at some inner feeling when all they need to do is record the sex, the weight, the date (& time) and check if anything needs attention? Is there something to fill out on the record sheet for "gender identity"?

BluebirdsSong · 08/08/2021 16:22

@EyesOpening

Why would a doctor/midwife guess at some inner feeling when all they need to do is record the sex, the weight, the date (& time) and check if anything needs attention? Is there something to fill out on the record sheet for "gender identity"?
Frankly, I have no interest in making this into another endless circular debate thread.

The OP asked for what the words are used to mean, so I assisted with that.

Chickenyhead · 08/08/2021 16:23

@EyesOpening

Why would a doctor/midwife guess at some inner feeling when all they need to do is record the sex, the weight, the date (& time) and check if anything needs attention? Is there something to fill out on the record sheet for "gender identity"?
They wouldn't, because they are scientists, who know what sex a child is.
BluebirdsSong · 08/08/2021 16:37

@Chickenyhead
"They wouldn't, because they are scientists, who know what sex a child is."

And then society at large assigns a gender category based on sex.

Chickenyhead · 08/08/2021 16:39

[quote BluebirdsSong]@Chickenyhead
"They wouldn't, because they are scientists, who know what sex a child is."

And then society at large assigns a gender category based on sex.[/quote]
I reject that belief.

I have no gender.

I don't have to adopt one either.

I have a biological sex.

That's all thanks.

eddiemairswife · 08/08/2021 16:41

Reminds me of a children's TV programme, Mr. Benn. Each day he would go into a shop and decide what he would be that day. He would come out as a deep-sea diver, a bee-keeper, an astronaut, a drag queen (just joking).

EyesOpening · 08/08/2021 16:43

[quote BluebirdsSong]@Chickenyhead
"They wouldn't, because they are scientists, who know what sex a child is."

And then society at large assigns a gender category based on sex.[/quote]
they may impose gender roles onto people, that's not the same as an inner gender identity, which a doctor, as you said, assigns a baby at birth

334bu · 08/08/2021 16:56

They don't. They guess based on genitals.They assume the kid will be cis non-trans, just as they usually assume the kid will be straight.

And here's me thinking they simply noted the sex of the baby. Silly me!!!!