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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Deleted/censorship on mumsnet now!

777 replies

HermioneKipper · 06/08/2021 10:34

My thread asking about transwomen/transitioning/penises has been deleted.

Why are we not allowed to discuss this? It’s a genuine question and extremely relevant to the debate about transwomen entering female spaces.

There was no abuse of trans people that I could see aside from a few people attempting to derail by saying that they couldn’t see why women might be concerned about having to share their space!

This isn’t right

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
WhatKatyDidNot · 07/08/2021 08:29

I don't think "protected beliefs" are protected to the extent that private websites are compelled to allow them in comments.

You don't understand the concept at all, do you? The point is that it is not permissible for service providers (here, MNHQ) to discriminate against persons with protected beliefs.

So, it would be okay to ban discussions on genderism across the board since both holders of genderist and gender critical beliefs would be treated the same. It would be equally okay to allow both sides to discuss their beliefs fully. But it would not be okay to treat holders of one of those belief systems differently by limiting what one group can say but not the other.

To use the most obvious example, if you can say "transwomen are women" it would be discriminatory to disallow "transwomen are men" and vice versa.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 07/08/2021 08:31

With regard to the motivations for transitioning

  1. anyone who thinks you can 'feel' like a member of the opposite sex is 100% bought into sexist stereotypes. Their reasoning is flawed from the get go, and in a way that disproportionately harms women, as that is the group harmed most by sexist stereotypes

  2. I don't know the percentages, but in addition to 1, a proportion of males who identify as women are doing so because it brings them sexual excitement. This is AGP

Now, I don't care about motivation. I have more sympathy for those driven only by item 1, but regardless, in my view, no male belongs in spaces where women are partially clothed or vulnerable.

But, you would think that for those trying to make single sex spaces mixed sex, some thought would be given to weeding out individuals with motivation 2. After all, why should women lose their privacy, dignity and safety to give sexual satisfaction to some males?

However, instead, there is an active push to include and even centre individuals driven by item 2. it's most peculiar

WhatKatyDidNot · 07/08/2021 08:32

The complaint that many feminist and long term MNers have is that MNHQ uses "in the spirit" and "civility" as fig leaves for limiting discussion of the gender critical belief but does not apply the same standard to genderist belief. And that this is potentially discriminatory.

WhatKatyDidNot · 07/08/2021 08:37

Crossdressing is a euphemism for AGP and the blessed Stonewall specifically includes it under the trans umbrella. Jus' sayin'.

Helleofabore · 07/08/2021 09:01

This beats repeating. Thank you Bernard

A really interesting point in there was a quote from Christine Burns about a choice that Press for Change made to talk about 'trans' This allowed them to conflate 'transsexuals', understood as people with a medical issue with, well, a whole bunch of other people:

We knew in our hearts at that time that policymakers and judges weren’t yet sophisticated enough in their understanding to contemplate rights for people whose difference appeared self-identified or impermanent or maybe even optional

For anyone who does not believe that the long game that has been played here, these people have admitted it in all sorts of off hand comments over the years. But it does all fit nicely with the Dentons report which provided such advice.

Helleofabore · 07/08/2021 09:02

Bears. Not beats. Autocarrot.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 07/08/2021 09:08

Helle that is a thing that fascinates me.

Why do the people with dysphoria accept being lumped together with people who's motivations are, well, different?

Ninkanink · 07/08/2021 09:16

@Flamglimglubberty

*Think about what that thread was actually saying. That people should remove a part of their body. Judging whether or not a person should remain in tact, without knowing anything about individual trans people's journeys, lives and experiences.

It's horrific, and it was coming from a large majority of people who are not themselves trans.*

Can we just take a moment to appreciate the irony of us being told not to discuss something we have no experience of... As if that's not the exact thing women have been requesting. Literally all we want is for male born persons to cease dictating how we should feel about situations they have no lived experience of.

And also no one was saying that men should remove their penises.
Artichokeleaves · 07/08/2021 09:19

We don't ban discussions about AGP - but suggestions that it's the main motivation for transition does not sit within our guidelines.

It is, however uncomfortable, a matter of fact that for some TW it is the motivation for transition. Debbie Hayton, who is a MNetter and has engaged on the boards many times to share their views as (in their own chosen terms for themselves) a transsexual male, has explained that this is how they view their motivation for transition.

So we have two points here. Yes, there are those very keen to prevent AGP being mentioned or discussed at all in threads and to report them for deletion quickly. I can well understand this is an uncomfortable aspect to face. But there are two things relevant:

  1. When we're told we must listen to trans voices (which we would not mind if there was reciprocal listening to women's voices and women's voices given equal airtime when laws and policies were being drafted and advised on) are we going to listen to Debbie and to other people who are trans, define themselves as male and specifically talk about AGP using those terms to describe their experiences? Or are they the 'wrong' kind of trans whose voices mustn't be heard either and whose experiences and evidence should be suppressed? Essentially is there an actual value of 'listening' to voices and lived experiences, or is this a nice veneer over 'only one narrative is permitted and non compliant ones will be suppressed and kept out of public knowledge as much as possible'?

and 2) On a women's rights board, it is absolutely appropriate for women to be discussing should they be compelled to provide non consensual participation in any male person's sexual experience if they wish to use a single sex space where they are in a state of undress and vulnerability?

It always comes back to: there is no way to separate the many different motives and behaviours out to gatekeep who may enter a single sex space: either access is granted to all male people or none. And so to discuss the range of motives and the impact upon female people is absolutely relevant on a board focused on women's rights, women's needs, women's voices and women's issues. This is cannot be all about trans people; women have an equal if not larger stake in this because its about what women must lose in order for trans people to gain wanted rights.

I will mention again for the record: even if it was possible to place someone on the door of every single sex space for women with either Layla Moran to check their soul, or someone to do a Vulcan mind meld to check intentions, there are still females who would be excluded from the only space available to them in order for male people to be able to have their preferred choice of spaces .

That is exclusion, not inclusion. It prioritises one sex class over another. It restricts women's access to public spaces, resources and services, particularly impacting upon vulnerable women often with other protected characteristics. This is not acceptable.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 07/08/2021 09:21

Why do the people with dysphoria accept being lumped together with people who's motivations are, well, different?

yes. When Gendered Intelligence tried that trick on people with DSDs they were very firmly asked to fuck off

Ninkanink · 07/08/2021 09:34

I will mention again for the record: even if it was possible to place someone on the door of every single sex space for women with either Layla Moran to check their soul, or someone to do a Vulcan mind meld to check intentions, there are still females who would be excluded from the only space available to them in order for male people to be able to have their preferred choice of spaces .

That is exclusion, not inclusion. It prioritises one sex class over another. It restricts women's access to public spaces, resources and services, particularly impacting upon vulnerable women often with other protected characteristics. This is not acceptable.

Absolutely right.

callmeadoctor · 07/08/2021 09:52

Is body dysmorphia the reason that people are trans? Should we just call people, persons with or without a penis? Then toilets/ hospitals/jails could segregate that way?

Mulletsaremisunderstood · 07/08/2021 09:54

Who wrote the MN guidelines that were mentioned, and who are they meant to benefit? Certainly not women.

RedDogsBeg · 07/08/2021 09:58

@callmeadoctor

Is body dysmorphia the reason that people are trans? Should we just call people, persons with or without a penis? Then toilets/ hospitals/jails could segregate that way?
No. We should just refer to people as their birth sex - male, female, man, woman, boy, girl. Body modifications and hormone use do not change one sex to the other sex.

Space and services to be segregated on the basis of birth sex only, if that does not suit some people then they need to make the case for separate, additional spaces and services that cater to their needs.

Ninkanink · 07/08/2021 10:00

@callmeadoctor

Is body dysmorphia the reason that people are trans? Should we just call people, persons with or without a penis? Then toilets/ hospitals/jails could segregate that way?
No we should not.

We already have words to tell us who has/had a penis and who does not.

Woman and man, female and male.

They work very well. Language formed over millennia upon millennia of human existence and based on biological fact which we all understand does not need to be messed with to engineer some kind of alternate reality.

Imasoulman · 07/08/2021 10:03

@WhatKatyDidNot

Crossdressing is a euphemism for AGP and the blessed Stonewall specifically includes it under the trans umbrella. Jus' sayin'.

The concept of AGP has only been around for a couple of decades so if anything was a euphemism which it's not, it would be the other way around.

The sooner we all stop worrying about what Stonewall say the better.
They are only motivated by the need of a financial revenue nothing else, they won the battle for Gay equality and suddenly found themselves redundant and so took up the Trans banner.

Most sensible Trans people know that Stomewall do more harm than good.

Somehow we need to make government aware that we don't want or need Stonewall.

FluffyBattleKitten · 07/08/2021 10:03

@callmeadoctor

Is body dysmorphia the reason that people are trans? Should we just call people, persons with or without a penis? Then toilets/ hospitals/jails could segregate that way?
People can't change their male body. Their male body that means the bearer can easily overpower even women of a similar height and build. All single sex spaces should be respected. For the women that need them, not the women who don't. Sexual abuse survivors, religious women, young girls. No ones distress at their 'gender' trumps their right to dignity and safety. So no we can't separate by penis people and non penis people, as it would still exclude some females. And even trans people who have had the 'op' can be motivated by agp-see the above. I'm not going to be an unwilling participant in someone's sexual fantasy. Link should be private between consenting adults, not writ into public spaces.

It's simple. No it's, buts or hows. Making exceptions to be 'kind' got us in this mess.
No exceptions without exception is the only way forward. If you open the gates to one you open to everyone.

FluffyBattleKitten · 07/08/2021 10:07

Kink not link

Jorrris · 07/08/2021 10:08

@callmeadoctor

Is body dysmorphia the reason that people are trans? Should we just call people, persons with or without a penis? Then toilets/ hospitals/jails could segregate that way?
No we shouldn't. Segregate by biological sex. Not gender feelings. Separating by gender feels is utterly illogical.
Artichokeleaves · 07/08/2021 10:15

Why not diversify and add to male provision?

Why not exort men to be kind and inclusive and widen the bandwidth of what it means to be male?

Why not add more spaces, a variety of spaces, while preserving single sex spaces?

Explore that. Thoroughly. And you have the essence of why women are so very angry about this.

Mulletsaremisunderstood · 07/08/2021 10:21

@Artichokeleaves

Why not diversify and add to male provision?

Why not exort men to be kind and inclusive and widen the bandwidth of what it means to be male?

Why not add more spaces, a variety of spaces, while preserving single sex spaces?

Explore that. Thoroughly. And you have the essence of why women are so very angry about this.

Exactly. Why aren't men being told to budge up, move over, be kind, make space for TW. Why isn't it expanding what it is to be male?

Why aren't they using all that lobbying and might to push for a third space, if they are so afraid of male violence (which women have been campaigning against for years).

Because it's not about safety, it's about validation. They want what we have, it's colonisation.

Helleofabore · 07/08/2021 10:24

A question for soulman if you don’t mind.

If stonewall doesn’t represent you and those you mention. Do you have a group who does support you? Is there a group that has been formed who will engage and discuss what your needs?

Or will that group be treated like LGB Alliance and declare a hate group too?

From listening to you (and I don’t agree with you on some issues but at least we can discuss issues) and other posters and reading other social media posts there does seem to be a need for a group to amplify your many voices.

AlfonsoTheMango · 07/08/2021 11:37

@callmeadoctor

Is body dysmorphia the reason that people are trans? Should we just call people, persons with or without a penis? Then toilets/ hospitals/jails could segregate that way?
No.
Thelnebriati · 07/08/2021 12:30

When you decide that gender identity is more real than biological sex, you announce that women's experiences are not real.

Women's experiences include the risk of rape, assault, unwanted pregnancy and murder. Nothing is being done to tackle those risks. Steps that have been taken to mitigate those risks are being undone.

This isn't something that women should have to accommodate.

Gottalife · 07/08/2021 12:57

@Artichokeleaves

Without being able to peer in their underwear how would you know? You can keep on givng this answer but it never sinks in. Challenging women based on physical appearance could result in a good handbagging too. The GC argument is like a stuck gramophone record.

Perhaps you need to listen to it more carefully?

How are you going to decide who passes? To what extent? To what degree that a female person is not excluded by perceiving them as natally male?

How are you going to tell those who do not and cannot pass to this standard and insist that they don't use women's spaces? How are you going to manage those such as the individual who photographed themselves with a sword in female toilets explaining what awaited any woman who dared challenge them? Or someone such as the well known Twitterer who posts pictures with invitation to women to 'suck my lady dick if you don't like it'?

The answer is that there is no way to gatekeep. There is no way to differentiate stage of transition or degree of transition. And as has been amply proven since the GRA (which was the compromise) if any natal male people are permitted to use female spaces then it has to be accepted that it means in effect, all. And female people are powerless. And vulnerable. And excluded. And saying no.

This needs to stop now. This does not work for female people. Another and better answer needs to be found, but attempting enforced female capitulation (or trying to prevent women being allowed to voice the issues, their feelings, their experiences and yes, their justifiable anger at all this) is not going anywhere helpful for anyone.

Thank you for a sensible response. For a change.