BY A FOUR-TO-ONE MARGIN, CANADIANS BELIEVE TRANSGENDER ATHLETES’ PARTICIPATION IN WOMEN’S SPORT IS “UNFAIR”: NEW MLI POLL

[TedImgoingmad]

This leading Canadian think tank has reported today. I haven't read it as it's just been published, but thought I would share anyway. The opening para reads:

OTTAWA, ON (August 4, 2021): New polling conducted on behalf of the Macdonald-Laurier Institute reveals significant findings regarding Canadians’ views on gender identity and women’s sport. By wide margins, Canadians support traditional sex-based categories for competitive sport, and they believe that allowing transgender athletes who were born male but who identify as women to compete in women’s competitive events is “unfair.”

www.macdonaldlaurier.ca/gender-womens-sports-poll/

@MotionActivatedDog

Your title is incorrect OP. It’s not transgender athletes in women’s sports being called unfair- transmen are perfectly acceptable in women’s sports- it’s transwomen in women’s sports that are considered unfair.

"transwomen" is an dishonest term that appropriates the word "woman" to describe men. It is also confusing - many people think "trans women" refers to women who identify as men. TRAs know this and play on it. The use of 'transgender' complete with an accurate definition of that term here is helpful and I think should be used more widely. Thus the NHS/Olympics/SNP should be corrected to say "people who were born male but who identify as female - are women". Any idea why they don't?

The younger generations are being brainwashed with gender rubbish from the moment they walk into school, so it might not be surprising that they have a skewed idea of what is fair

Terrifying isn't it. However, it isn't the younger generation who are allowing sports to include male athletes into the female category in spite of all the evidence which shows the unfairness of such inclusion nor is it the younger generation who are teaching children to deny scientific reality in schools.
So why is it happening? Why are women just collateral damage?

Worst. Derail. Ever.

It's not a derail - it's central to the discussion. Those of us in favour of keeping female sporting categories argue for the exclusion of transwomen on the basis that they are male, not on the basis that they are trans.

@MrsOvertonsWindow

I'm not in the slightest bit surprised at this. If policy makers ever consulted ordinary people - especially women - there would be no men self identifying as women in hospital wards, women's prisons, changing rooms, showers, dormitories, refuges, sports or anywhere where women gather for women only company. It wouldn't happen. There are no women anywhere in the world who seek to be undressed / vulnerable in front of unknown men - no matter how they present.

People recognise this for what it is - deliberate intrusion and erosion of women and girls privacy, safety and dignity.

This is why Denton's advice was to get everything through behind the scenes. It was why Stonewall, even in the days when it was an LGB organisation, quietly began including transgender on its agenda long, long before 2015 when it became official. It's why they thought they could just make an 'administrative' adjustment to the GRA to quietly slip self-ID in and why in Ireland transgender 'rights' were slipped through on the back of Equal Marriage. It's because they know that on a public vote they'd be defeated. This is the opposite of democracy.

This gives hope to Canada. Hope that perhaps the general population will start to see what is going on over there.

@HermioneKipper

I’m conflicted about this. If you are a trans man then I’m not sure why you would want to compete in events that affirm achievements and success for women.

Interested in the arguments surrounding this issue though.

I would not be happy at all with trans men being permitted to compete in women's sports.

Make their minds up. If being a woman isn't good enough for trans men in life generally, then tough luck if that excludes them from female only sports.

So do you think they should compete in the men's category? Or not compete at all? Or should there be a separate 'trans' category?

And if 'transmen' should be excluded from women's sports because 'being a woman isn't good enough' for them, should 'transwomen' also be excluded from men's sports because being a man isn't good enough for them? Where should they compete?

Usually the argument is that people should compete in the correct sex category regardless of any feelings about 'gender identity' (as long as they comply with anti-doping rules). I don't think people are normally excluded from their correct sporting category because of any views they hold which some others might find offensive.

Usually the argument is that people should compete in the correct sex category regardless of any feelings about 'gender identity' (as long as they comply with anti-doping rules)

Whose argument? Posters on here? It's certainly not the argument of many sporting bodies.

It seems to me exceedingly dishonest of trans men who insist they are men, who make a fuss about any references to anything female relating to childbirth, menstruation etc, to the point of demanding language changes , but apparently can overcome the trauma of being described as a "woman" if they can compete in women's sports.

As to where they can compete? Not my problem.

Personally, I don't have a problem with a person who is a transman in their day to day life competing in the woman's category (provided they are clean of hormone doping). But I would not be happy if they are expecting everyone to use male pronouns for them, and for terminology around the race to be changed, such that the actual happy to be women women are not allowed to refer to and celebrate their own competition as a woman's competition. I don't want commentators going on about "Fred Bloggs, he won the Women's 100 metres....sorry the 100m Uterus Havers competition." After all the absurd changes in terminology women have had to endure to accommodate this tiny minority, what makes anyone think this wouldn't happen in sport?

@KimikosNightmare

Usually the argument is that people should compete in the correct sex category regardless of any feelings about 'gender identity' (as long as they comply with anti-doping rules)

Whose argument? Posters on here? It's certainly not the argument of many sporting bodies.

It seems to me exceedingly dishonest of trans men who insist they are men, who make a fuss about any references to anything female relating to childbirth, menstruation etc, to the point of demanding language changes , but apparently can overcome the trauma of being described as a "woman" if they can compete in women's sports.

As to where they can compete? Not my problem.

Yes, the 'usual' argument was referring to what many posters here say about sex categories in sport.

Like you, I find the attitude of females who insist that they are not women offensive. But I don't think this should prevent them from competing in women's sports (as long as they're not doping with testosterone).

I find lots of views that others hold offensive, and some people appear to find my view that people can't change sex offensive. I don't think any of us should be banned from sport as a result of holding views that others find offensive. Because ultimately, who decides which is the most offensive view which means that that person should be banned?

And if you say that women who want to be men shouldn't be in women's sports, are you also saying that men who want to be women shouldn't play in men's sports?

Make their minds up. If being a woman isn't good enough for trans men in life generally, then tough luck if that excludes them from female only sports.

This has become an issue in many women's and lesbian groups, where women (usually butch lesbians) have transitioned but still expect to be accepted as lesbians and women when they want access to the women's/ lesbian community. Indeed, some of us are dealing with women who've gone from lesbian to trans to non-binary and after a period of just being Queer now say they are a transman and expect to be welcome at the monthly lesbian get-together even if they're now Tom and have a goatee. I'm firmly of the f* off, you're a man now, persuasion.

Someone posted me some info on Borderline Personality Disorder and lack of fixed identity seems to be part of it. It does make one wonder...

I'm firmly of the f off, you're a man now, persuasion*

However, this thread is about a survey on whether it is "fair" for transgender people to take part in female sports. Obviously there is no evidence to show that including any female person, no matter their gender identity is " unfair" to the other participants, unless of course they are taking performance enhancing drugs. However, there is a lot of evidence that including a male person who identifies as a woman is very unfair.

@Thelnebriati

Its not that I don't think sports are important, but prisons have been made mixed sex, Vancouver Rape Crisis and the Anchorage Hope women's shelter have both been under attack; none of them got this much support.

I`m wondering if this is because people think sport is an issue that more people can understand and its more in the public eye. Prisons and Rape Crisis may fly under the radar.

I genuinely believe that the very obvious differences in athletic performances between the sexes will open the eyes of many to the ludicrous state of play where supposedly intelligent people tie themselves up in knots trying to pretend that male athletes who identify as women are just the same as women. This hopefully will bring the plight of female prisoners etc into the light .

Trans Scotland' s motivation for pushing for the inclusion of transwomen into the female prison estate was predicated on their belief that ,if you could get past this hurdle , every other hurdle would then fall.
Perhaps ,if we can get everyone to accept that male athletes have no place in female sport, we can then convince them that there should be no place for any males , whatever their gender identity in female only spaces.

I've been following the arguments for some time and my view is that because prisons are largely off the horizon of most people's minds, little attention has been paid to what has been going on, despite the shocking conclusion of the recent High Court judgment.

Sport, on the other hand, is highly visible to all. Sport and the safeguarding of children must count as the heaviest, most obvious and most persuasive of dominoes to fall and once they do, the others will follow. I hope.

This is really interesting. I suspect sports are just more mainstream. Unfortunately few people care about how prisoners are treated even though the vast majority of them will be released and have to reintegrate into society.

@Taswama

This is really interesting. I suspect sports are just more mainstream. Unfortunately few people care about how prisoners are treated even though the vast majority of them will be released and have to reintegrate into society.

And, depending on the country where you live, the number of people who spend a period in prison, or have a criminal record (maybe with a suspended sentence) that makes them vulnerable to imprisonment, tends to be a concealed piece of information that is seldom shared outside a family. (And can be concealed even within a family.)

I think it would be difficult for some people to speak up for prisoners even though it affects such a substantial number of families (looking at the entire prison and remand population).