Brainwashed

[MadameKali]

So I wanted to start a thread of my own but, like some kind of tosspot, managed to add it to another thread by accident. The internet is a mystery to me.
Anyway I've copied it below:

I've been pondering lately how we've managed to sleepwalk into where we are now. How have people been so duped? Many people are waking up to the reality and the scales are falling, but why were the scales there in the first place?

Two years ago hearing about "pregnant men" I would've quite happily nodded along thinking "yes, yes of course men can be pregnant and have babies" How did I never come to the point of going "Hmm, I did GCSE biology and I'm pretty sure that men having babies would've been covered. I should maybe do a bit of research because that just doesn't make sense" Nope, just blindly went along with it. I'm hardly brain of Britain but how could I have been so dumb?

I just accepted that yes, TWAW of course they are. Anyone who feels like a woman is one. How did I never question "what does a woman feel like?" Possibly the fact that I've never given any thought to feeling like a women - it's just my reality - but that I knew I wasn't a man, meant that other people felt or didn't feel like their reality. (Don't know if that makes sense, it does in my head)

A story in the Daily Mail about male born people in women's prisons would've been hand waved away with "Fucking Fail, making shit up again" It's definitely a lie and against the law Surely if it was true the Guardian would cover it. They're my tribe, we are the good guys.

I guess the last example is slightly different because that's stuff being overtly fed to us by the media with certain things being deliberately hidden. But is the other stuff also a symptom of that? Was I just a thicky? It's like some weird brainwashing experiment.

I don't want to keep rambling but does anybody have any ideas how we got to the stage that seemingly intelligent people believe such nonsense? While I'm here, a big thanks to the women of the naughty corner (and a particular RL friend) for making my eyes open, it's odd that once you see it, you can't unsee it.

People are busy. Humans are tribal. It's much quicker and easier to look at what your tribe is saying and adopt the same view. You don't have to interrogate it because you already know your tribe are the good guys and therefore must be saying the 'right' thing. There is a high social, emotional and potentially financial cost to challenging your own tribe.

My dad (late 70s) is pretty homophobic, in the "it's not natural, I don't want to think about it, it was illegal in my day" way. Being a generation younger, this always upset me, it's certainly not what I believe, and…

…most importantly, it doesn't affect him at all so why does he even need an opinion on it?

I think the highlighted section above is where the comparison with homophobia falls apart, Vice. Your dad is indeed unaffected by gay people being able to marry one another. Unless he’s a clergyman who refuses to marry same-sex couples, your dad could be in prison, or in hospital, or in any part of his daily and ongoing life and it wouldn’t affect him in any way.

Whereas if we fall into agreeing that men are women, then thousands, perhaps millions of women will be affected in many different ways.

Therein lies the difference. And all my young adult children see the problems with giving men permission to enter women’s spaces and with men being considered legally female. The whole of the younger generation are not unquestioningly on board because there are major problems with this that didn’t exist in the battle for gay rights. Gay men were not demanding the right to be called straight and they were not demanding access to women’s spaces. This isn’t about being old and bigoted and unable to accept new ideas. It’s by definition, about a clash of rights.

I can honestly say I didn't understand the terminology. I thought that TW were women because they were women presenting as male. And that therefore TM are men, ie men presenting as female... I am sure this was an early obfuscation, done deliberately. D I t t a n y pretty much took my hand and traced the words with me, so to speak. She didn't laugh when the scales fell, either, I felt so stupid.

Still in Be Kind mode - following a MTF person, blogging their surgical transition. The first thing, the FIRST THING they wrote about, not relief at surviving a big operation, not about pain relief issues, not about how hospital staff were so attentive and caring, nope. How deep was their neo hole, that was what they were interested in beyond all other issues or topics. Gave me the shudders and that was that.

I still think it's a very complicated subject

I agree with most of your post ViceLikeBlip, but I'm not sure about this.

It's not complicated at all. People can't change sex. It's the pretence that people can change sex which has got us here: the GRA, the protected characteristic of gender reassignment being interpreted by Stonewall and others as meaning that people should be able to self-identify into the spaces reserved for people of the opposite sex.

It was homophobia which got the GRA passed. Homophobia is still at the root of many people's transitions (particularly those who are younger). It's time all pretence that people can change sex should go. People can't change sex. It's not possible and there should be no legal fiction which makes it so in law.

@AnyOldPrion

My dad (late 70s) is pretty homophobic, in the "it's not natural, I don't want to think about it, it was illegal in my day" way. Being a generation younger, this always upset me, it's certainly not what I believe, and…

…most importantly, it doesn't affect him at all so why does he even need an opinion on it?

I think the highlighted section above is where the comparison with homophobia falls apart, Vice. Your dad is indeed unaffected by gay people being able to marry one another. Unless he’s a clergyman who refuses to marry same-sex couples, your dad could be in prison, or in hospital, or in any part of his daily and ongoing life and it wouldn’t affect him in any way.

Whereas if we fall into agreeing that men are women, then thousands, perhaps millions of women will be affected in many different ways.

Therein lies the difference. And all my young adult children see the problems with giving men permission to enter women’s spaces and with men being considered legally female. The whole of the younger generation are not unquestioningly on board because there are major problems with this that didn’t exist in the battle for gay rights. Gay men were not demanding the right to be called straight and they were not demanding access to women’s spaces. This isn’t about being old and bigoted and unable to accept new ideas. It’s by definition, about a clash of rights.

Yes, I do understand this now. But trans rights are still being presented as a very natural progression of gay rights, and I think this was even more the case 20 years ago. When in fact I can't actually see that the two issues are even related?

Any mention of possible dangers has historically been met with "well, that's a completely hypothetical and vanishingly unlikely scenario" (eg men in women's prisons, or competing in women's categories at the Olympics). At least (unfortunately) we now have plenty of evidence that these scenarios are certainly not purely academic hypotheticals.

I’d also say look where we’ve been for the last decade or so.

Recession
Austerity
Covid

All the things that go along with that. My community has been falling apart for years. For the last 20 years more and more shops have closed. More businesses transferred elsewhere. More job losses. More poverty. More food banks. Schools failing. Sickness and serious illnesses. Mental health problems with no services. And so on.

These have been immediate issues. If you’re out of work and you’re kid’s school is failing and you’re using a food bank and your mum’s in intensive care and your partner is in a depression what do you care about trans issues. You don’t always get affected. You have more pressing things to deal with. You might know a transperson but they’re pretty much in the same boat as you.

Most people don’t believe anyone actually changes sex. They say “well, he’s a woman now.” But they don’t think they’re women, they think they’re trans. So they know they’re not transphobic- those bigots you hear about must be doing and saying horrible things. About perfectly nice people who face abuse and struggle with who they are.

You see it hear all the time.

“Why would anyone have their bits removed...”
“My friend is lovely..”
“That’s never going to happen....”

I think those posters are genuine. They don’t believe someone can look male, with a beard can be lauded by an LGBT charity “as a woman”. (Specific person not a generalisation but I’ve forgotten the fragrant Alex’s surname and I CBA to look it up)

Then they tweet what they think is a supportive comment re trans and MH or that full genital surgery is involved and they’re the bigot. The ‘phone. They wash up here. They see the facts.

It all sounds too outrageous. Many people won’t get the accusations because they’re not in the groups that demand pronouns and inclusion.

Until they are.

Specific person not a generalisation but I’ve forgotten the fragrant Alex’s surname and I CBA to look it up

Alex Drummond, I believe

@Deliriumoftheendless

I’d also say look where we’ve been for the last decade or so.

Recession
Austerity
Covid

All the things that go along with that. My community has been falling apart for years. For the last 20 years more and more shops have closed. More businesses transferred elsewhere. More job losses. More poverty. More food banks. Schools failing. Sickness and serious illnesses. Mental health problems with no services. And so on.

These have been immediate issues. If you’re out of work and you’re kid’s school is failing and you’re using a food bank and your mum’s in intensive care and your partner is in a depression what do you care about trans issues. You don’t always get affected. You have more pressing things to deal with. You might know a transperson but they’re pretty much in the same boat as you.

Most people don’t believe anyone actually changes sex. They say “well, he’s a woman now.” But they don’t think they’re women, they think they’re trans. So they know they’re not transphobic- those bigots you hear about must be doing and saying horrible things. About perfectly nice people who face abuse and struggle with who they are.

You see it hear all the time.

“Why would anyone have their bits removed...”
“My friend is lovely..”
“That’s never going to happen....”

I think those posters are genuine. They don’t believe someone can look male, with a beard can be lauded by an LGBT charity “as a woman”. (Specific person not a generalisation but I’ve forgotten the fragrant Alex’s surname and I CBA to look it up)

Then they tweet what they think is a supportive comment re trans and MH or that full genital surgery is involved and they’re the bigot. The ‘phone. They wash up here. They see the facts.

It all sounds too outrageous. Many people won’t get the accusations because they’re not in the groups that demand pronouns and inclusion.

Until they are.

Yes- there's always someone who can say it better than me!

I feel that I could have written that OP. It's only the women in the naughty corner who have opened my eyes. It's scary how gradually things have changed and what would have seemed inconceivable a few years ago is becoming common place.

Thanks to everyone who has posted links on the thread.

I get particularly frustrated when scientists fall for gender ideology. I'm a regular listener to the science podcast The Skeptics Guide to the Universe which is very big on critical thinking. Yet when I've gone on to on to (one of the presenters) Cara Santa Maria's own science podcast, I've heard her expressing frustration with practitioners who haven't referred to transgender "kids" by their preferred pronouns.

@ViceLikeBlip

I'm early 40s. My dad (late 70s) is pretty homophobic, in the "it's not natural, I don't want to think about it, it was illegal in my day" way. Being a generation younger, this always upset me, it's certainly not what I believe, and most importantly, it doesn't affect him at all so why does he even need an opinion on it?

And I think this is quite a common "starting place" for a lot of people. It's something I really don't understand, but hey- live and let live, right? And as I was having more misgivings, I was having discussions with younger family members where I was sounding a bit like my intolerant dad, and I really didn't like that.

I still think it's a very complicated subject, and I still believe that the vast majority of people in any walk of life just want to be allowed to get on with living their life in peace. But it should always have been obvious to everyone that there will always be a significant minority who will take any opportunity to harm women. Unfortunately we now have a lot of evidence to corroborate this, but I think it is at least opening more people's eyes to the fact that it really isn't as simple as "live and let live".

But I have yet to make any headway whatsoever in persuading younger female family members of this. And I do wonder at what age the younger generation really do take over, and whether we have enough time to change their opinions before we're considered totally obsolete, and our own children start excusing us with a hushed "she from a different generation".

I totally get this. I'm in my early 50s, pro gay rights and had a live and let live attitude towards trans people (still do when it doesn't impinge on women's rights).

My mum is in her 80s, pretty progressive but has no truck with TWAW and has been shocked by what I've been telling her. Our views generally align.

MIL, on the other hand, is much more old fashioned and of the "there weren't all these gays when I was young" school of thought. I've always found it comforting that those attitudes will naturally die out.

But now I look at my teenage dd with her TWAW attitude, listen to her comparing me to MIL and really worry that it's largely middle aged women who are GC and that our generation will die out before the younger one has woken up.

Standing ovation over here for @OldCrone. You are completely spot on

I also think subjective emotions and feelings have taken over logic and reality.

That's how humans get their 'kicks' I guess, you don't get that 'hit' from posting about logic and reality on SM.

Someone also once mentioned the rise of Type B personality disorders, i.e. those who are prone to hysterics and the drama queens, or train wrecks of a life. Then all this gets played out on SM and weaponised to a toxic level, where the emptiest tin cans make the loudest noise.

Someone also once mentioned the rise of Type B personality disorders, i.e. those who are prone to hysterics and the drama queens, or train wrecks of a life. Then all this gets played out on SM and weaponised to a toxic level, where the emptiest tin cans make the loudest noise.

Yes. Social media has massively exacerbated this.

It's all been so cloak and dagger and while I'm not normally a conspiracy theory nut, there's no denying that this has been very much done under the radar.

Most policy is made under the radar. This is because most of it is incredibly detailed and boring and fairly uncontroversial. But also because some causes have intensive lobbying operations whose entire purpose is to get the policy through without it reaching the democratic arena.

Whenever a new poster expresses concern about strange behaviour in their teenage children (or any age, really), I always want to shout GET THEM OFF THE INTERNET! I'm sure so many parents have absolutely no idea what their children are accessing and absorbing all day and all night long.

I'm early fifties and I struggle to regulate my own online consumption. I have a million things to do at work but here I am, mumsnetting. I know the consequences of too much time online, but I still do it. What chance do children have?

Four reasons come to mind: lack of critical thinking, inability / unwillingness to challenge TRA ideology, desire to be work and fear of cancel culture.

woke not work

As a feminist, I have fought for women to present however they like without judgement and to underplay the differences between men and women so it is difficult to now, have to point out the differences between men and women in order to ensure that natal females are not pushed aside and undermined.

When women have an equal share of voice, money and power alongside men, in all areas of society and in all parts of the globe, then we can stop counting and checking.. until then, we have to retain the right to insist that we continue to fight for equal representation of women everywhere.

they know they’re not transphobic- those bigots you hear about must be doing and saying horrible things

This reminded me of a discussion I had recently with my daughter. I told her about the Marion Millar case and she looked at me in a skeptical way, wondering why I would support a woman when I didn’t know what she’d actually tweeted. She believes that for the police to get involved, Marion must have tweeted “something pretty bad”.

And I realised then that I have no faith whatsoever in the Scottish police when it comes to this topic and would believe a gender critical woman over them.

It will be interesting, if we ever find out, to see which of us was right.

I only paid half notice to the subject until about a year ago. There was a conversation on Facebook where unbelievably two men seemed to be arguing aggressively that trans women were LITERALLY women. This blew my mind. I asked them the question directly out of naivety - do you mean LITERALLY WOMEN? No response. But to me that was a huge moment and I then started searching for more information and became 'radicalised' by mumsnet. Prior to this, I'd felt it was nonsense to suggest we had a gendered soul, we're born in the wrong body or there was such a thing as 'feeling like a woman'. I'm knowledge about religion, ethics, feminism and philosophy. I intuitively understood the subject. However, the missing piece for me was understanding that others literally believed men could be women by saying the magic words. I would echo what others have said about trust institutions to do the right thing. Of course the Guardian would tell me if women's rights were under attack! Of course a prison would never put men in a woman's prison! Of course the NHS would never mutilate a child! This whole experience has pushed me from being a liberal socialist to a libertarian anarchist.

Just to add. My partner's epiphany on the subjects mirrors mine. Once I realised what was happening, I told him. He didn't believe me. Within a week, he was like WTAF and calling for the GRA to be repealed.

Loads of interesting comments here and I’m gonna spend some time reading the thread now but I wanted to add that the reason it’s taken me about 2 years to understand fully what is going on was purely out of my liberal mindset.

Absolutely the “what does it hurt” - if a man wants to live as a woman then really does it hurt anyone? No. If a kid says they are desperately sad as a boy and was born in the wrong body, shouldn’t we do what we can to help them be happy? Yes!

But I had no understanding that there was a movement to change what woman meant. No idea of the impact was if we base society - as in laws and legalities and healthcare etc etc - on letting people just decide how they are, rather than having a scientific basis for assessment (biology).

I was in the live and let live camp and for the most part there isn’t a problem with that mentality, in theory. Everyone deserves to be happy and free to live their life…..

I just didn’t see the bigger picture, I didn’t critical analyse what it mean to change language, I never understood the importance of language, the absolute necessity of it for protection.

I wasn’t brainwashed by any means, I was just very much in the camp of “there’s no harm” and totally uninformed - I think it’s very common.

I think you could take that graph and directly track it to the internet taking off and opening up.
The rise of YouTubers, Twitter and the invention of smart phones seems to directly correlate with the rise of gender identity.

I'm on the fence but I think in the end the internet will prove more a force for evil than for good. I don't think the ability for people to spread harmful ideology:whether healthy bodies need surgery or children being sexualised are balanced out by the gains of the internet in our lives.
Ultimately I think it might be the end of society as we know it, but that's rather pessimistic of me.

I think it's like that experiment they did with a load of actors at a doctor's surgery. Various real life patients sat amongst a waiting-roomful of actors who were all primed to sit calmly while smoke was puffed into the room from under door. The receptionist is on on it, too. The subjects were watched and timed to see how long they would sit quietly like the rest before shouting "Fire!" or at least getting up from their seat to report.

Turns out if everyone around you is busy ignoring and normalising something weird and disturbing, most people would sit on quietly until overcome by smoke or burned alive. Especially women ...

Don't make a fuss, dear! Be nice and don't rock the boat.

I was talking about this with my (very GC), DS (25) yesterday. We seem to be in the grip of a collective madness where loads of women are shouting that the King is in the all-together but no-ones listening and just nodding and agreeing how beautiful the suit is.

Call yourself what you like, wear what you like, I don't care but don't show me something that looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck and tell me it's a fucking swan.

(Anyone want to write a dissertation on Hans Christian Anderson and lessons in critical thinking)?