Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Game on: Sajid Javid bites

53 replies

TheFleegleHasLanded · 03/08/2021 21:41

After years (I’m not exaggerating) of women writing to the Department of Health, the new minister has at least, and at last, acknowledged there is a problem. It’s a sliver of hope. Keep the pressure up!
twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1422623414196576256?s=21

Game on: Sajid Javid bites
OP posts:
FloralBunting · 04/08/2021 11:53

Leave the Baronness alone. I'm a ridiculously uncouth fucker, but she is an impressive woman who is getting shit done, and I would be quite content to stand beside her and moderate my language to do so.

Now, let's make sure Javid's feet are held to the fire.

Tibtom · 04/08/2021 12:15

Arguably the Tories started the UK’s descent into craziness with the self ID proposals

I disagree. This starts with the GRA which allowed the lie that women are nothing more than something to be identified in to. Once that was set in law the rest just follows. Which is why the GRA must be repealed.

There are a few occassions in my life where I remember exactly what I was doing when I heard something. And I remember it was Radio 4 'Today' at 7:30am in my last house whilst the old wallpaper was still up. I remember feeling sick.

oldwomanwhoruns · 04/08/2021 12:16

His tweet says women and transgender... need to 'feel safe'. Feel bloody SAFE. Feel f***g SAFE!!!

Does he even appreciate that when transgender (predominantly male, white, middle-aged, middle class) say that they fear 'literal violence', all they mean is that they might be misgendered.

Whereas when we women are afraid of ACTUAL violence. Being raped in our hospital beds. Being assaulted. Also groped, leered at, made uncomfortable. Being unable to pee, because there is a man in earshot.

R0wantrees · 04/08/2021 12:27

It is really important to understand is that "sex offender" is not the same thing as "rapist". Most sex offenders, particularly since rape convictions are so low, will be exhibitionists/flashers or voyeurs or possessors of illegal porn/child abuse. THOSE are potentially some of the male patients they're putting in with what are mostly elderly, vulnerable women on medical wards. Paraphiliac adult males with convictions for flashing or voyeurism. A hospital ward is literally their most wished for offending environment.

If the police are now recognising that for the most dangerous of men, flashing or voyeurism must be taken seriously (following Sarah Everard's murder), why are the NHS and other Care providers ignoring/downplaying this potential risk in spaces where women are at their most vulnerable?

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 04/08/2021 12:29

If I met Baroness Nicholson I'll be sure to use my best vocabulary. As opposed to my favourite vocab.

She's so elegant.

R0wantrees · 04/08/2021 13:04

I disagree. This starts with the GRA which allowed the lie that women are nothing more than something to be identified in to. Once that was set in law the rest just follows. Which is why the GRA must be repealed.

The GRA 2004 followed the ECHR ruling CHRISTINE GOODWIN v. THE UNITED KINGDOM, 11 July 2002.

At the time, 65 year old Goodwin was a divorced father of four, described as having cross-dressed since childhood and undergone surgical interverventions aged 49. Goodwin's "conviction was that her “brain sex” did not fit her body."

(extract)
16. In 1996, the applicant started work with a new employer and was required to provide her National Insurance (“NI”) number. She was concerned that the new employer would be in a position to trace her details as once in the possession of the number it would have been possible to find out about her previous employers and obtain information from them. Although she requested the allocation of a new NI number from the Department of Social Security (“DSS”), this was rejected and she eventually gave the new employer her NI number. The applicant claims that the new employer has now traced back her identity as she began experiencing problems at work. Colleagues stopped speaking to her and she was told that everyone was talking about her behind her back.

  1. The DSS Contributions Agency informed the applicant that she would be ineligible for a State pension at the age of 60, the age of entitlement for women in the United Kingdom. In April 1997, the DSS informed the applicant that her pension contributions would have to be continued until the date at which she reached the age of 65, being the age of entitlement for men, namely April 2002. On 23 April 1997, she therefore entered into an undertaking with the DSS to pay direct the NI contributions which would otherwise be deducted by her employer as for all male employees. In the light of this undertaking, on 2 May 1997, the DSS Contributions Agency issued the applicant with a Form CF 384 Age Exemption Certificate (see Relevant domestic law and practice below).

  2. The applicant's files at the DSS were marked “sensitive” to ensure that only an employee of a particular grade had access to her files. This meant in practice that the applicant had to make special appointments for even the most trivial matters and could not deal directly with the local office or deal with queries over the telephone. Her record continues to state her sex as male and despite the “special procedures” she has received letters from the DSS addressed to the male name which she was given at birth.

  3. In a number of instances, the applicant stated that she has had to choose between revealing her birth certificate and foregoing certain advantages which were conditional upon her producing her birth certificate. In particular, she has not followed through a loan conditional upon life insurance, a re-mortgage offer and an entitlement to winter fuel allowance from the DSS. Similarly, the applicant remains obliged to pay the higher motor insurance premiums applicable to men. Nor did she feel able to report a theft of 200 pounds sterling to the police, for fear that the investigation would require her to reveal her identity." (continues)

The applicant complained that although she currently enjoyed a full physical relationship with a man, she and her partner could not marry because the law treated her as a man." (continues)
www.bailii.org/eu/cases/ECHR/2002/588.html

UK Government lost the case and was found to be in violation of Articles 8, 12 and 13 of the Convention.

There is no indication in the transcript of consideration of potential impact to Goodwin's female co-workers within the workplace (changing rooms, toilets etc) or indeed the consequences for women and children when states are required to deny an adult male person's sex.

AlfonsoTheMango · 04/08/2021 13:08

Arguably the Tories started the UK’s descent into craziness with the self ID proposals

My understanding is that it started with Tony Blair as a way of getting around same-sex marriage.

AlfonsoTheMango · 04/08/2021 13:11

Ninja'd by R0wantrees. It was, indeed, Labour under Tony Blair.

Jaysmith71 · 04/08/2021 13:11

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

If I met Baroness Nicholson I'll be sure to use my best vocabulary. As opposed to my favourite vocab.

She's so elegant.

She's also deaf, so use your best enunciation.
Blackopal · 04/08/2021 13:15

I will be watching him with interest, he is my MP.

I emailed him years ago about this issue, he ignored me. I called his office they refused to let me speak to him and told me I couldn't arrange a meeting.

After badgering them for an answer to my email I received a letter explaining that TWAW and are the most oppressed group in society and basically telling me to sod off.

I know alot of women contacted him and received identical letters.

R0wantrees · 04/08/2021 13:24

My understanding is that it started with Tony Blair as a way of getting around same-sex marriage.

ibid. From Goodwin Vs UK Government
2002

(extract)

  1. Review of the situation of transsexuals in the United Kingdom
  1. On 14 April 1999, the Secretary of State for the Home Department announced the establishment of an Interdepartmental Working Group on Transsexual People with the following terms of reference:

“to consider, with particular reference to birth certificates, the need for appropriate legal measures to address the problems experienced by transsexuals, having due regard to scientific and societal developments, and measures undertaken in other countries to deal with this issue.”

  1. The Working Group produced a report in April 2000 in which it examined the current position of transsexuals in the United Kingdom, with particular reference to their status under national law and the changes which might be made. It concluded:

“5.1. Transsexual people deal with their condition in different ways. Some live in the opposite sex without any treatment to acquire its physical attributes. Others take hormones so as to obtain some of the secondary characteristics of their chosen sex. A smaller number will undergo surgical procedures to make their bodies resemble, so far as possible, those of their acquired gender. The extent of treatment may be determined by individual choice, or by other factors such as health or financial resources. Many people revert to their biological sex after living for some time in the opposite sex, and some alternate between the two sexes throughout their lives. Consideration of the way forward must therefore take into account the needs of people at these different stages of change.

5.2. Measures have already been taken in a number of areas to assist transsexual people. For example, discrimination in employment against people on the basis of their transsexuality has been prohibited by the Sex Discrimination (Gender Reassignment) Regulations 1999 which, with few exceptions, provide that a transsexual person (whether pre- or post-operative) should not be treated less favourably because they are transsexual. The criminal justice system (i.e. the police, prisons, courts, etc.) try to accommodate the needs of transsexual people so far as is possible within operational constraints. A transsexual offender will normally be charged in their acquired gender, and a post-operative prisoner will usually be sent to a prison appropriate to their new status. Transsexual victims and witnesses will, in most circumstances, similarly be treated as belonging to their acquired gender.

5.3. In addition, official documents will often be issued in the acquired gender where the issue is identifying the individual rather than legal status. Thus, a transsexual person may obtain a passport, driving licence, medical card etc, in their new gender. We understand that many non-governmental bodies, such as examination authorities, will often re-issue examination certificates etc. (or otherwise provide evidence of qualifications) showing the required gender. We also found that at least one insurance company will issue policies to transsexual people in their acquired gender.

5.4. Notwithstanding such provisions, transsexual people are conscious of certain problems which do not have to be faced by the majority of the population. Submissions to the Group suggested that the principal areas where the transsexual community is seeking change are birth certificates, the right to marry and full recognition of their new gender for all legal purposes. (continues)

NB Secretary of State for the Home Department in 1999 was Jack Straw (2 May 1997 – 8 June 2001)

GrimDamnFanjo · 04/08/2021 13:29

The civil servants need to be lobbied. They will be writing the guidance and presenting the options to him.
Facts and research needs to be presented to inform their recommendations.

LizzieSiddal · 04/08/2021 13:40

Yes it’s Civil servants who need to be DeStonewalled.

I’m pleased Jarvid has made that Tweet. It’s an opening shot, he knows there will be much “discussion” by the likes of The Guardian. But who can actually disagree with his statement?

R0wantrees · 04/08/2021 13:45

The civil servants have been lobbied for many years from within. The civil service special interest group, a:gender is based within the Home Office (supporting all trans and intersex staff across government). From memory, I believe representatives were involved prior to GRA 2004.

www.agender.org.uk/

OldCrone · 04/08/2021 13:49

The GRA 2004 followed the ECHR ruling CHRISTINE GOODWIN v. THE UNITED KINGDOM, 11 July 2002.

None of the reasons for the GRA are applicable today, or could be more easily addressed by means other than allowing some people to change the sex marker on their birth certificate.

17. The DSS Contributions Agency informed the applicant that she would be ineligible for a State pension at the age of 60, the age of entitlement for women in the United Kingdom.

Pension age is now the same for both sexes.

The applicant complained that although she currently enjoyed a full physical relationship with a man, she and her partner could not marry because the law treated her as a man.

We now have same sex marriage.

There is no indication in the transcript of consideration of potential impact to Goodwin's female co-workers within the workplace (changing rooms, toilets etc) or indeed the consequences for women and children when states are required to deny an adult male person's sex.

The other points should be revisited with this in mind. Why was concealing this person's sex from other people with whom they came into contact seen as a reasonable goal? Other people also have rights, and it's women and children who are losing those rights with the law as it stands.

R0wantrees · 04/08/2021 13:53

(7/4/2008 archive capture)

a:gender
The support network for transsexual, transgender and intersex staff in the civil service

About us
The numbers of TS/TG staff in individual departments are relatively small and some LGB networks in the civil service will not support TS/TG staff who identify as heterosexual, the issue being one of gender identity and not sexual orientation. This can reinforce feelings of isolation and exclusion.

We therefore decided to form a network that embraced TS/TG and intersex staff across the whole civil service, and its agencies and associated departments/offices.

What are our priorities?
To establish a:gender as a respected source of advice and information that Departments can draw on, when needed.
To provide advice and information on the Gender Recognition Act
To liaise between government departments and the 'external' providers of support for TS/TG/intersex people (eg. Press For Change, Gender Trust).
To provide advice and support for staff who are being harassed and discriminated against in the workplace.
To hold regular meetings and local contact points for staff who are transitioning, have transitioned, or are about to transition.

Our aims and objectives are:

To provide confidential and mutual support and a safe environment for members to share experiences of working in the Civil Service, its agencies and associated departments/offices.

To increase knowledge of issues affecting transsexual/transgender staff, and staff who identify as intersex.
To work towards the eradication of individual and institutionalised transphobia
To provide consultation to, and to raise concerns with, senior managers.
<strong>To offer advice on issues relating to transsexual/transgender staff, and staff who identify as intersex, to meetings, induction projects, training, etc.</strong>
<strong>To work towards consistent best practice of treatment and benefits for transsexual/transgender and intersex staff"</strong>

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080407000202/www.agender.org.uk/about.asp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20080407000202/www.agender.org.uk/about.asp

As with similar lobbying organisations, I do wonder how well such a group serves those people with DSD/intersex medical conditions which have nothing to do with 'gender identities'.

PronounssheRa · 04/08/2021 13:57

[quote R0wantrees]The civil servants have been lobbied for many years from within. The civil service special interest group, a:gender is based within the Home Office (supporting all trans and intersex staff across government). From memory, I believe representatives were involved prior to GRA 2004.

www.agender.org.uk/[/quote]
Interesting message on that site This site is currently being updated.Basic information is available below.Please check back soon for further content

I wonder if all the scrutiny is having an impact?

oldwomanwhoruns · 04/08/2021 13:59

Thx for that mind-blowing info re Christine Goodwin, @R0wantrees .
So they never thought to consult the women!! It's all about the pooor menses.
Angry

R0wantrees · 04/08/2021 14:05

oldwomanwhoruns It always was, not just the feelings of men who wished to live as women but also the men who had relationships with them. I suspect some in the latter group have been influential.

herewegogc · 04/08/2021 14:10

Love the Baroness 👏👏👏

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 04/08/2021 14:31

Yet she quote tweeted someone who used the term 'fuckwittery'?

Ah yes, let's pick apart her personal preferences on language, instead of applauding her courage, as almost the only politician prepared to speak up for women. That'll really help.

IsitM · 04/08/2021 14:53

As far as I can see nobody was having a go at the Baroness. She just seemed to be a bit cross with Conservatives for Women who as far as I am concerned are doing great work. Just didn't seem fair, that's all, to appear to tell them off for a light-hearted remark.

AdaFuckingShelby · 04/08/2021 15:06

Let's hope Sajid has more courage and integrity than his predecessor. And more intelligence, empathy and judgement. Mind you, the bar is low...

R0wantrees · 04/08/2021 15:16

Daily Mail
3/8/2021
'BARONESS NICHOLSON: Why I fear the sanctity of single sex wards is under threat from trans rights'

(extract)
"A hospital should be a refuge — somewhere that ill and vulnerable people can stay in absolute safety, their only concern being to focus on getting better.

But, sadly, I have come to learn these institutions can at times stray far from this ideal.

For well over a year now, people working across the NHS have been writing to me to tell of their deep concerns about a tragic and, I believe, dangerous shift that has taken place inside our hospitals.

The consequences of this change were foreseeable — but are no less horrifying.

In my capacity as Chair of the parliamentary campaign group Children and Women First, I have been reading of the most appalling sexual behaviour alleged by whistleblowers to have taken place on hospital premises, including at least one case of rape. (continues)

Many biologically female patients have understandably been left distraught, forced to share some of their most intimate and vulnerable moments alongside a member of the opposite sex.

Others, like those in the ward disturbed by their presence, have been left uncomfortable to a degree.

Still others, as my correspondents from across the NHS have said, are alleged to have seen or experienced far worse.

Yet, often, they object at their peril. Many of those who have expressed discomfort at this turn of events — be they patients or nursing staff — have been accused of transphobia and hate crime. Some nurses have lost their jobs." (continues)

Hospitals are exempt from the Equalities Act of 2010, which outlawed discrimination or unfair treatment on the basis of certain personal characteristics, among them age, religion or sexual orientation.

It means they were one of the few places where you can — or could — insist on the privacy of a single-sex space.

Moreover, that right had been hard-won in only recent history. While single-sex wards were standard practice for decades, in the late-1970s and early-1980s the NHS started to move towards mixed-sex wards to cut nursing costs and make the best use of diminishing numbers of staff.

It led to widespread complaints, particularly from female patients worried about being in beds alongside male patients, and sharing washing facilities with them.

It took years of lobbying from health professionals and organisations — among them the Mail — for the law to change.

That happened in 2011, when a redrafted version of the Patient's Charter announced mixed-sex hospital wards were to be phased out, with patients given the right to request a bed on a single-sex ward.

Separate lavatories also had to be provided on existing mixed-sex wards. Since April that year, Trusts have been fined £250 when a patient is placed on a mixed-sex ward." (continues)

And it is women who are paying the price. As a woman who has spent a great deal of her adult career campaigning for the rights of women and children, I approached colleagues to form an all-party campaign group to collect evidence from patients and medics on the impact of the deviation from single-sex spaces.

The examples we have received are legion.

In hundreds of emails and hours of personal testimony, we have heard cases ranging from dementia patients distressed at waking up next to someone who, in their mind, looks like a man, to reports of a rape on a psychiatric unit undertaken by a biological male who identified as a woman." (continues)
www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9857821/BARONESS-NICHOLSON-fear-sanctity-single-sex-wards-threat-trans-rights.html

Children and Women First
MY VISION
"It is imperative to restore the rights of women & children. I foresee a single issue, cluster approach; we make a new Women’s Rights movement solely to rescue womanhood from its destruction through today’s legal and social denial of our existence" - Emma, Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne

If you would like to join my Supporters, Friends & Helpers Mailing List to receive updates and invites to Public Meetings (Webinars) please email me:
[email protected]

childrenandwomenfirst.org/

Flowers and gratitude Emma Nicholson

childrenandwomenfirst.org/

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/08/2021 15:17

After my initial scepticism, maybe it is a good idea that Javid asks for fresh advice.

Hopefully he will also enquire as to the names of the NHS individuals playing so fast and loose with safeguarding and assaults on women that they openly argue for rapists and paedophiles to be placed on wards with women. Then he can arrange for some safeguarding re education for them along with some in depth sessions on sexual violence against women, (along with sacking them).