Female Namibian runners change events due to too high testosterone

[KevinBaconsJeans]

Just spotted this on my newsfeed and very confused. I've seen on another post that there is no maximum limit for women's natural testosterone. So does that mean that this BBC article is lying by omission about the sex of the runners to create a story that isn't true?

It talks about two Namibian runners who have had to switch to different events because they have high T...

www.bbc.com/sport/africa/58029941

Extract:
Her initial excitement at an Olympic qualification however was crushed when she was informed by World Athletics that she would not be able to compete in the 400m event at the Games due to high levels of testosterone.

"In the beginning I was very down, you can't come and tell me now I am not a woman. That is really frustrating and gets me on my nerves but there's nothing we can do about it at the moment," she told BBC Sport Africa...

"It is really unfair because you cannot expect everyone to be the same, everyone to have the same abilities, we are born with different abilities, we can't be the same it doesn't make sense."

Masilingi was only informed in July by World Athletics that her testosterone levels were beyond the allowed limit for female athletes wanting to run in distances from 400m to one mile, unless they medically lower their testosterone for a period of at least six months

@littlbrowndog

This is fucking up me watching and enjoying women’s sport for mev

This is what could change the rules. Not fairness for women but the general public turning away because watching the sport becomes pointless, the entertainment aspect goes. It’s so unfair.

It’s making my blood boil watching the elite female runners having to compete against biological males.
Where is the fairness in that?

This is a graph that shows natural levels of testosterone for XX and XY humans.

Yes some XX people have high levels of testosterone (and those are likely to be extremely unwell) but the naturally high levels of testosterone of XY people who have ambiguous sex organs and thus may have been assigned as female at birth are in the normal range for XY people, the limit for these athletes is set at 5nmol and 10nmol which is 2.5 and 6 times (approx) that of the normal XY range.

The naturally high levels of testosterone of XY people who have ambiguous sex organs and thus may have been assigned as female at birth are in the normal range for XY people,

That is important to stress. All the conditions being limited (I believe) are ones where they have natural male testosterone levels. I'm not aware of any XY DSD that would naturally leave them with female testosterone levels that they are sensitive to. No androgen-sensitive XY athlete will comply with the regulations without treatment.

The lowering that's being requested is conceptually the same request as made to males trying to enter on the grounds of being transwomen.

"Lower your testosterone to below normal male levels - not as far as normal female, mind - and we'll let you compete despite your male body".

The male performance advantage - and the failure to offset that - is the same in both cases. Equally unfair on women.

Does anyone know if there are any males with DSD competing in male events?

There was a Telegraph article a while ago that had concrete proof that some corrupt talent scouts/coaches actively look for kids with these DSDs to exploit.

It's not just that these kids don't get periods - their voices break and they get male-pattern body hair at puberty. There are other obvious signs of testosterone coursing through their veins too. I think it's extremely naïve to suggest that these kids didn't know they were male.

Competitive sport is incredibly lucrative. Of course there are corrupt people who will exploit any loophole they can find. It's women who will lose out every time, and yet we're being told to sympathise with the male people who are taking women's places.

We've all been told that Caster has 'lived experience as a woman' but in this interview Caster says that even as a child Caster saw girls as "they" and "them."

Not only are there two athletes with XY chromosomes in the 200 m final, there have been four women's records broken in the last couple of hours.

Two national records, the world under 18 record and the world under 20 record have all gone. How will women and girls ever regain those records?

The same applies to women's and girls records in 800 (and I think 400 and 1500).

It is so obviously unfair and exclusive, how can it ever be justified.

Shame on everyone who is pretending that this isn't happening.

They have XY chromosomes, in other words, the same condition as CS?

I too am completely confused about this. It's as if there is a media blackout of a sorts on any honest discussion of these athletes.

The Namibian President had insisted that they are XX females!

At the minute I feel creeped out by media and how they are reporting on this issue. It's like living in a country with official censorship policies. To me it's an even bigger risk to female sports than a 43 year old weightlifter. These XY female athletes are coming to dominate women's running - weren't three winners at Rio in this category?

Exactly TurquoiseBaubles, records being broken by someone who just changed to the 200m and we are told nothing to see there, all is fair and square.

It's as if there is a media blackout of a sorts on any honest discussion of these athletes.

The obfuscation seems pointless because the IOC rules make it clear that these athletes are XY, have levels of testosterone in the normal range for a male, and are androgen sensitive. Why can't the BBC just report this?

It's as though the rules are somehow taboo.

@TurquoiseBaubles

Not only are there two athletes with XY chromosomes in the 200 m final, there have been four women's records broken in the last couple of hours.

Two national records, the world under 18 record and the world under 20 record have all gone. How will women and girls ever regain those records?

The same applies to women's and girls records in 800 (and I think 400 and 1500).

It is so obviously unfair and exclusive, how can it ever be justified.

Shame on everyone who is pretending that this isn't happening.

I know this is crap

One couldn’t even use the blocks

I love sport really really do.

Watching women doing great.

Just spoiling it.

Can imagine how the women who got pushed out feel

This is an interesting topic. I had not been aware that women with cais had been overrepresented in elite sports. I completely agree that we need the data. I use the term women with cais deliberately, these women had their sex at birth observed as female as there is no discernable difference from other baby girls. Women with cats are raised as girls and treated by everyone that they ever encounter as female. I will never believe a male person to be a woman and I am equally certain that women with cais do not deserve to get drawn into any situation wherein they are labelled as male.

Not cats, obvs. Thanks a ducking bunch autocorrect.

Exactly @merrymouse. They describe them as having 'naturally high levels of testosterone'. Which any woman, say with PCOS, could have.

It's as if they don't want to utter the word 'chromosome'. Disingenuous muddying of the facts.

@Faceicle

This is an interesting topic. I had not been aware that women with cais had been overrepresented in elite sports. I completely agree that we need the data. I use the term women with cais deliberately, these women had their sex at birth observed as female as there is no discernable difference from other baby girls. Women with cats are raised as girls and treated by everyone that they ever encounter as female. I will never believe a male person to be a woman and I am equally certain that women with cais do not deserve to get drawn into any situation wherein they are labelled as male.

Women can’t have cais, it’s a male disorder. Just because they weren’t diagnosed at birth, doesn’t make them female.

@TurquoiseBaubles.. which athletes are they?

Sorry if anyone else has posted 8it, but here is the BBC article from 2nd July, where they clearly state -

"But Namibia's national Olympic committee (NNOC-CGA) has now confirmed Mboma and fellow sprinter Beatrice Masilinigi are unable to run the distance in Tokyo because of World Athletics rules on "Athletes with Differences of Sexual Development", or DSD, following testing conducted by the global body."

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/africa/57678741

[quote andyoldlabour]Sorry if anyone else has posted 8it, but here is the BBC article from 2nd July, where they clearly state -

"But Namibia's national Olympic committee (NNOC-CGA) has now confirmed Mboma and fellow sprinter Beatrice Masilinigi are unable to run the distance in Tokyo because of World Athletics rules on "Athletes with Differences of Sexual Development", or DSD, following testing conducted by the global body."

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/africa/57678741[/quote]
This is an example of what I was talking about above - such vague terms.

'A difference of sexual development' - they mean XY chromosomes? Then why not state it?

'The girls were not aware' - even more baffling! If you have that profile, and are androgen sensitive, you do not go through female puberty. No ovaries, no womb.

Curiouser and curiouser.

@Faceicle I can't speak for other posters but when I say CAIS is a male DSD that's not a moral judgement on the people who have it. CAIS is a disorder that can only happen to people whose bodies were meant to develop male reproductive organs and other sex characteristics.

In terms of sport, it's really important that we protect the integrity of the women's competition and the easiest way to do that is to make sure only women can compete.

It shouldn't be female + 'not quite male'. That's not fair to women.

If not for the massive overreach of the gender identity movement, I might not advocate we hold such a firm line. But here we are.

Not curious, it’s cheating.

That interview with Caster Semenya is very telling.

I hadn't seen Semenya interviewed before.

For the women and girls who have been cheated out of athletic careers, grants, scholarships, funding, endorsements, and opportunities, I don't think it matters a jot whether they are competing against a man who has artificially lowered his testosterone like Hubbard or someone with a DSD who hasn't.

Either way, they're losing out.

Women have only been competing in the 200m since 1948. Less than 75 years' later, our competition has been stolen back by men.

Weightlifting in the Olympics has only been open to women since 2000.

[quote heathspeedwell]We've all been told that Caster has 'lived experience as a woman' but in this interview Caster says that even as a child Caster saw girls as "they" and "them."

[/quote] Not to mention the instinctive man spreading! As someone who has travelled extensively on public transport this is a dead give away.

@Faceicle

This is an interesting topic. I had not been aware that women with cais had been overrepresented in elite sports. I completely agree that we need the data. I use the term women with cais deliberately, these women had their sex at birth observed as female as there is no discernable difference from other baby girls. Women with cats are raised as girls and treated by everyone that they ever encounter as female. I will never believe a male person to be a woman and I am equally certain that women with cais do not deserve to get drawn into any situation wherein they are labelled as male.

This is exactly where I'm at.