Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What's wrong with medical transition for kids? I need sources!

30 replies

shesellsseacats · 01/08/2021 22:02

I'm preparing a letter for DS's school on medical transition for children. The school are currently referring children on a charity that practices affirmation, apparently without any clue what it is they're promoting.

I'd like to explain:

a. what happens to children who are referred on for being trans
b. what are the side effects and dangers of blockers, hormones and surgery
c. what the affirmation model is
d. what detransitioners are saying about all this

Can anyone point me to some good sources to help me explain this?
And - sorry, this makes it a challenge - ideally not from organisations that they'll dismiss as transphobic hate groups. (I know, I know).

Articles or any format would be good, video would be brilliant.

So far I've got articles about all the Tavistock whistleblowers and also this brilliant video from David Bell.

www.channel4.com/news/children-have-been-very-seriously-damaged-by-nhs-gender-clinic-says-former-tavistock-staff-governor

Can anyone recommend anything?

Thanks :)

OP posts:
shesellsseacats · 01/08/2021 22:06

In case it's helpful for anyone else, here are the other links I have on the whistleblowers.

  • Kirsty Entwhistle (GIDS Clinical Psychologist) & her letter of resignation:
medium.com/*@kirstyentwistle*/an-open-letter-to-dr-polly-carmichael-from-a-former-gids-clinician-53c541276b8d
  • Dr David Bell, (ex Consultant psychiatrist & staff governor at the Tavistock)
www.theguardian.com/society/2021/may/02/tavistock-trust-whistleblower-david-bell-transgender-children-gids
  • Susan Evans, ex Psychotherapist & nurse at GIDS - who went to court with Keira Bell
www.crowdjustice.com/case/protect-children/
  • Five anonymous clinicians at GIDS who resigned and went to the press:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/calls-to-end-transgender-experiment-on-children-k792rfj7d
OP posts:
shesellsseacats · 01/08/2021 22:07

Gah! I shared my links in case they were useful and Mumsnet have hidden it!

They're links to articles on all the whistleblowers, basically.

OP posts:
AfternoonToffee · 01/08/2021 22:07

I think transgendertrend.com is often recommended as well as safeschoolsalliance.

AfternoonToffee · 01/08/2021 22:11

Someone is busy tonight, surely there must be something more exciting to do then monitoring Mumsnet.

shesellsseacats · 01/08/2021 22:13

I can't send either of them :(

They're both great, the work Transgender Trand have done going back years is outstanding.

But, I'm looking for stuff that's from mainstream sources at this point. I suspect they may dismiss TT and SSA as transphobic organisations.

So, I'm looking for articles in the press, or interviews on video, or studies etc. Or perhaps NHS guidance.

e.g. the BBC reporting on the Quality Care Commission having reviewed GIDS at the beginning of this and found many concerns:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55723250

And, the recent NICE review of both puberty blockers and cross sex hormones where they found the evidence for them to be poor quality. segm.org/NICE_gender_medicine_systematic_review_finds_poor_quality_evidence

Stuff like that.

OP posts:
shesellsseacats · 01/08/2021 22:13

*Trend!

OP posts:
shesellsseacats · 01/08/2021 22:15

@AfternoonToffee

Someone is busy tonight, surely there must be something more exciting to do then monitoring Mumsnet.
We are crawling with TRAs here sometimes! And I agree they must have better things to do!!

But this time, I think it was just the spam filters, I've fallen foul of it once before.

My post had a lot of links, so I suspect MN thinks I'm a spammy bot!

OP posts:
BridgetInHerBravery · 01/08/2021 22:16

There is plenty of good evidence in Keira Bell's judgement:

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Bell-v-Tavistock-Judgment.pdf

shesellsseacats · 01/08/2021 22:16

Videos would be really good.

The school aren't thinking at all about what happens to DS after they identify as trans. I'd like to show them the reality of transition and include some detrans voices.

Has anyone seen any videos from detransitioners you found powerful?

OP posts:
shesellsseacats · 01/08/2021 22:18

[quote BridgetInHerBravery]There is plenty of good evidence in Keira Bell's judgement:

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Bell-v-Tavistock-Judgment.pdf[/quote]
Brilliant, thank you.

I wonder what will happen next with the appeal verdict. (When's it due, has the court said?)

OP posts:
notinameeting · 01/08/2021 22:36

Ì am so glad you are not my son's mother. There is a difference between balanced debate and a crusade

shesellsseacats · 01/08/2021 22:40

Excuse me?

How is engaging the school in conversation a crusade?

Currently, my DS's school is helping DCs onto the path to transition without any idea what they're encouraging them to sign up for.

Giving them information from sources such as the NHS, NICE and the High Court is hardly going on a crusade, FFS.

OP posts:
Clymene · 01/08/2021 22:40

I think videos are a terrible idea, sorry. I won't watch videos because they're too demanding of my time.

There has been plenty of press coverage of the Keira Bell judgment OP

Warmduscher · 01/08/2021 22:42

@notinameeting

Ì am so glad you are not my son's mother. There is a difference between balanced debate and a crusade
I agree - the TRA side never wants a balanced debate. It’s #nodebate all the way with them. Hence why they lobbied so hard for discussions about trans issues to be siphoned off to the naughty corner.
Scout2016 · 01/08/2021 22:43

I'm off to bed so unable to search stuff out but the school should have an awareness of child development, ages and stages of cognitive functioning. The cognitive reasoning part of the brain isn't fully developed until around 25 years old. That's why children and young people are often impulsive and more likely to risk take. They also can't process more than one big life change at a time and tend to fixate before moving on. Young children have no real concept of permanence or of abstract notions like gender and can't fully think ahead or problem solve. There's reasons there's age limits on things like films, alcohol, sex, working, being in charge of a car. There's reasons we don't try to teach young kids complex subjects like algebra- their brains haven't the capacity to fathom the abstract. So for children to be allowed to make massive decisions that are irriversible is irresponsible at best.
Cutting it short, maybe look for something on child / brain development?

There is also the fact that they may lose sexual function and the chance to have children, and how can they make any sort of decision about that at such a young age? And how can their parents consent to that on their behalf?

The debunked suicide stats would be worth a mention too.

shesellsseacats · 01/08/2021 22:45

@Scout2016

I'm off to bed so unable to search stuff out but the school should have an awareness of child development, ages and stages of cognitive functioning. The cognitive reasoning part of the brain isn't fully developed until around 25 years old. That's why children and young people are often impulsive and more likely to risk take. They also can't process more than one big life change at a time and tend to fixate before moving on. Young children have no real concept of permanence or of abstract notions like gender and can't fully think ahead or problem solve. There's reasons there's age limits on things like films, alcohol, sex, working, being in charge of a car. There's reasons we don't try to teach young kids complex subjects like algebra- their brains haven't the capacity to fathom the abstract. So for children to be allowed to make massive decisions that are irriversible is irresponsible at best. Cutting it short, maybe look for something on child / brain development?

There is also the fact that they may lose sexual function and the chance to have children, and how can they make any sort of decision about that at such a young age? And how can their parents consent to that on their behalf?

The debunked suicide stats would be worth a mention too.

Thanks, that's useful.

Good shout on the suicide stats also, they've already been mentioned by the school. They've been led to believe that if they don't pass gender questioning DC on to "specialist" trans organisations (i.e. those who practice affirmation) then the DC will be at risk e.g. from suicide.

OP posts:
shesellsseacats · 01/08/2021 22:46

Can anyone recommend anything that simply explains the stages of medical transition for DC, to use as a starting point?

I tried the NHS page but it seemed to me it was still glossing over / minimising the reality of transition.

OP posts:
shesellsseacats · 01/08/2021 22:48

the TRA side never wants a balanced debate. It’s #nodebate all the way with them.

I reckon that cat's outta the bag now though! I'm hopeful that the days of #nodebate are over. It's been great to see that recent attempt to silence people speaking out on this are simply serving to amplify their message.

OP posts:
notinameeting · 01/08/2021 23:02

I'm not the TRA.

Ì dont think of myself as a perfect mother by any stretch and rarely feel.particularly skilled at the job. But omg am I glad my 17 year old has had me as a mother and not any of you lot. His life would have been unendurable.

Equally when I announced to the world (via FB!) that he was changing his name to a male one at age 12 I got nothing but support from my friends. I'm so grateful my friends are not you lot!

I am a very ordinary, untrendy middle aged mum.

We have been with the Tavistock for 5+ years. There has never been the slightest pressure for him to start on medication. Blockers were discussed neutrally as an option which we turned down with their support. My son will begin testosterone when he turns 18. Ì found their neutrality very helpful. Ì don't recognise the descriptions of the Tavistock on here at all albeit I realise there have been some very serious issues.

Mumsnet is frequently accused of being transphobic. Stereotyping forms a part of discrimination and I do find a lot of what I read on here stereotypes my son and very much stereotypes me as his parent.

I share the concerns on the erosion of female only spaces. Ì hate the language we are increasingly being expected to use. Ì am team Rowling (though my uber woke student daughter is not). When my son was younger and I was asked by cubs and school and NCS what arrangements I wanted for residentials I always opted for single room or female. Ì did not want my biologically female child in sleeping quarters with people with penises. For obvious, factual reasons.

I am fortunate that aside from a nightmare dysfunctional year when a childhood of confusion combined with starting high school came to a head, I have always been able to talk openly and honestly with my son. It's not always been easy but he is where he wants to be, I would say where he needs to be, and I feel it has been my job to support him not deny or denigrate or try to manipulate his feelings .

Towards the end of our nightmare year we went to an exhibition in London called trans voices or something like that. A lot of the exhibits made me incredibly uncomfortable. But there were many raw accounts from young trans people of trying to navigate these very difficult paths with no support. I'm truly not one for portentious statements and we were barely speaking at the time but as we left I said 'I know we're not getting on at the moment but I promise you, whatever happens, you will never be that unsupported'. He told the other day he has always remembered that.

I rarely talk much about this but recently at work a young father quizzed me in what I thought was quite an open way about our 'journey'. When I'd finished he said "that's fascinating but no way is any daughter of mine doing anything like that". Ì thought that was very sad.

Had he not been supported amazingly by his school, his family and his friends I would have feared for him. Please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Balance not backlash.

Before you attack me, I don't have the answers. Ì just thought the thread might benefit from a different standpoint.

notinameeting · 01/08/2021 23:04

There were paragraphs when I posted It!

Chickenyhead · 01/08/2021 23:20

@notinameeting

There were paragraphs when I posted It!
Flowers

I don't think that there are hard and fast rules in parenting. We do what we feel is right for our child, who we know best. You sound like you have both been on quite a journey indeed and stronger for it.

If your son starts hormones as an adult, this is their choice and as a parent most would love their child whether they agree or not.

I think in OPS case the school is positively trans affirming rather than neutral. I think she is trying to find evidence for balance and to avoid the automatic transphobe accusations. As you know, it isn't transphobic to want watchful waiting rather than active pushing. In some schools in my area it is almost endemic to identify in groups. It's different elsewhere.

I'm sorry your opinion of this board is so poor. I'm sorry you feel alienated.

I wish you and your son all the best.

334bu · 01/08/2021 23:31

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4288795-Helen-Webberley?msgid=109527324#109527324

Page 22 there are posts by Rowantrees and CharlieParley that you might find useful.

UnWilly · 01/08/2021 23:38

This booklet for/by detransitioners may be helpful www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4228051-A-thoughtful-and-beautifully-illustrated-booklet-for-Detransitioners?pg=1

Clymene · 01/08/2021 23:58

@notinameeting

Ì am so glad you are not my son's mother. There is a difference between balanced debate and a crusade
I'm sorry your child has been having such a hard time. But wanting to take a watchful waiting approach is not wrong or abusive or any of the other epithets you're chucking around.

Thousands of young women have been where your child was and desisted. 80% without an affirmative approach

Your later post (apart from the unnecessarily aggressive start) was much more considered. I hope your child finds that testosterone makes them happy.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 02/08/2021 01:11

extract from Scott Newgent, a transman, on wht Scott is against children transitioning.

I wasn’t “born in the wrong body.” I was born female. But I didn’t like it. So I changed my appearance, at significant monetary, psychological, and physical cost, with plastic surgery and hormones. My sex never changed, though. Only my appearance changed.

Anyone going through this is in store for a brutal process. Yet we now have thousands of naïve parents walking their children into gender-treatment centers, often based on Internet-peddled narratives that present the transition experience through a gauzy rainbow lens. Many transition therapies are still in an experimental phase—as you will learn if you become sick during or after these treatments.

During my own transition, I had seven surgeries. I also had a massive pulmonary embolism, a helicopter life-flight ride, an emergency ambulance ride, a stress-induced heart attack, sepsis, a 17-month recurring infection due to using the wrong skin during a (failed) phalloplasty, 16 rounds of antibiotics, three weeks of daily IV antibiotics, the loss of all my hair, (only partially successful) arm reconstructive surgery, permanent lung and heart damage, a cut bladder, insomnia-induced hallucinations—oh and frequent loss of consciousness due to pain from the hair on the inside of my urethra. All this led to a form of PTSD that made me a prisoner in my apartment for a year. Between me and my insurance company, medical expenses exceeded $900,000.

During these 17 months of agony, I couldn’t get a urologist to help me. They didn’t feel comfortable taking me on as a patient—since the phalloplasty, like much of the transition process, is experimental. “Could you go back to the original surgeon?” they suggested.

Whenever you question the maximalist activist line on trans affirmation, you are directed toThe World Professional Association for Transgender Health (or WPATH)as a reference. But much of what you find there consists of vague phrases such as “up to doctor’s discretion.” Several lawyers suggested I had a slam-dunk medical-malpractice case—until they realized that trans health doesn’t really have a justiciable baseline. As a result, treatment often issubpar, as I have experienced first-hand.

Lupron, the hormone blocker some doctors seem intent on giving to kids like Tylenol, isn’t evenFDA-approved to treat children with gender dysphoria. (In 2001, the manufacturerpled guiltyto fraudulent sales practices with regard to its marketing as a prostate-cancer drug.) We don’t yet know its long-term effects off-label, despite the fact parents have been assured that its effects are safe and even reversible.

Here is what we do know:The long-term use of synthetic hormone therapyshortens lives. Specifically, these medications are associated with an increased risk of heart attacks, pulmonary embolisms, bone damage, liver and kidney failure, mental-health complications, and more. Almost a quarter of hormone-therapy patients on high-dose anabolic steroids (such as the testosterone taken by female-to-male transitioners) exhibit majormood-syndrome symptoms. Between three and 12 percent go on to develop symptoms of psychosis.

quillette.com/2020/10/06/forget-what-gender-activists-tell-you-heres-what-medical-transition-looks-like/

Swipe left for the next trending thread