Mixed 4 x 400m relay heats

[NotBadConsidering]

Just on now.

First heat. All teams started with men first, then women 2nd leg. Nigeria then gambled, but a man 3rd when all other teams had a woman on the 3rd. The Nigerian man powered ahead making the women look very slow. He gave his team mate a 50m head start for the final leg. She was passed by the first man by about 250m and then all the others in the home straight and came last (USA just disqualified).

Second heat about to start.

[quote FannyCann]They had swimming mixed relay overnight. What a picture.

twitter.com/sharrond62/status/1421305556862599169?s=21[/quote]
That picture says it all!

I think if it's 2 males and 2 females it's quite fine, and a nice way for athletes to interact. It's certainly not unfair as all teams are the same.

I rather enjoyed it as a very clear example of how when the very best of the males are up against the very best of the females, the males will win every time.

It's not the same as in club sports where at the lower levels, coaches will try to organise teams so that abilities are suitably matched.
Of course a very strong female swimmer can beat an average male for example (I did exactly that as a 12 year old) but at Olympic level it's obvious that a male will be much faster than a female.

I don't know why the IOC need any proof of this. Its as clear as day to the average viewer who doesn't have a TRA agenda.

I'm going to watch the mixed triathlon and mixed swim relay now. The mixed relay is on iPlayer at 'Day 7 BBC1 athletics' at 42:20

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000y948

I just watched the 4x100 medley and loved it! Was totally gripped. I like how it demonstrates the differences, but the men and women are a team and have to all work together.

It’s a yes from me

Off to watch the mixed tri now.

The post race interviews with the GB relay team demonstrate that the swimmers absolutely take this 100% seriously and they are thrilled to bits with their win. They’re so excited!

@Sophoclesthefox

The post race interviews with the GB relay team demonstrate that the swimmers absolutely take this 100% seriously and they are thrilled to bits with their win. They’re so excited!

Of course they do! This is the Olympics!

@Elephantsparade

I used to run mini meets (swimmers aged 8 to 11) and mixed relays were always popular. All our local clubs had mixed sex squads and relays (whether single or mixed sex) were always fun and had lots of noisy support at the end of the session. Often swimmers pulled out a much better performance for the team then they could achieve in their individual events.

Mixed relays were pretty rare outwith the mini meets, so I like seeing them at elite level.

Interestingly, up until puberty, the girls are often slightly faster than the boys in their individual events, reflected in the selection times for 11 yr old boys in the 400m+ events being slower than for the 11 yr old girls.

Of course they do! This is the Olympics!

I know I was thinking of it disproving what, for example, Michael Johnson was saying last night about the 4x400 mixed relay, where he suggested it was a bit of a joke event, not to be taken seriously.

I think mixed relays are a great idea

Interestingly, up until puberty, the girls are often slightly faster than the boys in their individual events, reflected in the selection times for 11 yr old boys in the 400m+ events being slower than for the 11 yr old girls.

The second half of that may be true, but I think you're wrong about the first half. (I'm mainly informed by hearing Coach Blade talk about this).

At that age, you will to a fair extent be selecting for children that have started puberty, and are developmentally ahead of their peers. More girls will have started puberty than boys at that age, so there will be more pubescent female talent to choose from, making the selection times for girls faster. The female distribution gets a chance to edge ahead of the male distribution, by earlier puberty.

Boys are faster and stronger than girls at all stages of development, but the overall statistical gap narrows in that particular age band, due to girls entering puberty first, and the distribution widens due to a mix of development stages. At lower ages, with no-one having entered puberty, you would see boys clearly ahead.

If you controlled for puberty stage, rather than chonological age, boys would be ahead throughout.

Absolutely knackered from staying up to watch the Team Triathalon and 4x100 mixed swimming medley. Both gripping and loved every moment.

Loved the team spirit between the competitors. And so clear that, whilst the women were absolutely blinding, they cannot compete on the same terms with a natal male as they can with each other. There's no shame in that, it's just biological fact. As a team, the sex differences even out over the course of the race, but you can see clearly that, on a purely 1 on 1 basis, sex matters.

I wish some of the commentators, especially in the swimming, would make it clear that the women aren't just there to "hold" the race while the men get on with the "real" business. I got a bit irritated by it, and have watched it back a couple of times. I had to keep explaining to DS that the women weren't "losing" the race. They really need to create an intro video to explain how the race works for youngsters watching who don't understand it.

So good to see Sharron Davis interviewing poolside. I feared she would be sidelined by the BBC. However, interesting that the males dominated the post race interview, the women didn't get a word in and faded into the background a bit. And again, I just felt a slight sense of the women being just in the "holding" positions while the victory was the men's. Maybe - in my sleep deprived state - I'm reading something more into the mens' sheer joy, maybe the women were just overwhelmed by the it. I don't want to take anything away from the lads, they are just phenomenal. But it's just interesting to see the respective reactions.

It's so clear how future cheats who want to win these types of races can do it easily. Just substitute your women, and the IOC will have your back.

Both the triathlon mixed relay and swimming mixed relay highlighted the camaraderie between the respective groups. In the triathlon the commentators talked about how they all train together in Leeds. The swimmers also seem to be a great team who enjoyed being there for each other, it was lovely to see. Not to mention it gave GB two gold medals .

But like I said before it does seem a bit more forced in athletics.

I have no issue with any of them being in the Olympics overall. I just smack my head on my desk when I see the IOC on one hand having events with an equal spilt of the two sexes on one hand, then on the other state “TWAW”. How their brains don’t explode I’ll never understand.

@NecessaryScene

Given that these were the times my DC were achieving, I can guarantee that the relevant National squad selection times at age 11 are faster for the girls than the boys at 400m, 800m and 1500m.

At age 12+, virtually all of the selection times are faster for the boys.

I watched the mixed triathlon and the mixed swimming relay (I'm in Sydney, in lockdown, so there is nothing else to do!) and both were very interesting to watch. In the swimming, the commentators said it took months and months to decide which order the sexes would compete in, and different teams did different orders. This was because they really didn't know how it would play out and what the effects would be ; a very complicated calculation.

The Australian team got the bronze and it was really Emma McKeon on the final lap that got them that third place; she swam phenomenally well, and has more medals now than any other swimmer, male or female.

GB came first, and after the race they were elated; one of the male competitors picked up his female team member from behind and twirled her around; he was ginormous compared to her; he picked her up like a feather. Personally, I find the mixed competitions really interesting to watch, because there is more to sport than just strength/speed, but I think they really illustrate the need for single-sex competitions at the same time. I also watched the Matildas vs GB the night before, and it was a fantastic match; I really often prefer watching women's sport, and long may it remain that way! (Dreading next week with Laurel Hubbard).

On the point of pre-puberty performance, we could see that at aged 8 and 9 (definitely pre puberty) the girls often slightly outpaced the boys in competition.

This study shows the best girls being slightly faster than the boys, and then girls’ and boys’ performance being similar up until the age of around 10 (although it is possible that those top girls had hit puberty).

Swimming is interesting in terms of sex differences because more than many other sports, technique gets you much further than just brute power. I can take apart 50%+ of the male field in a triathlon swim because I’m in the top 10% of women. But then I get passed by them all on the bike of course. In long distance events I’ll reel a bunch of them back in on the run becuse smarts, pacing and being immune to gastro upset get you a long way, too.

It can be fun when you’re lane swimming too, middle aged women with good technique really wind up young bucks who can’t believe you can outpace them. They don’t expect their swim nemesis to be their mum 🤣

On the point of pre-puberty performance, we could see that at aged 8 and 9 (definitely pre puberty) the girls often slightly outpaced the boys in competition.

From what I understood from Coach Blade, you may not be looking young enough. It may be "pre puberty", but is it before any growth spurt?

Of course in track and field we actually have, interestingly enough, it's easy to look up online world records for running, jumping and throwing events starting even from age six. And so what happens is you have maybe even as much as five, six, seven, even up to ten percent difference between males and females at six and seven years of age in the running and jumping events, but way higher, like maybe fifteen to twenty percent more in the upper body, for example ball throw. And then what happens is you have this big distinct difference between little boys and little girls and then as they get to about eight, nine, ten you see a little bit of a convergence of that difference. Never though with upper body strength, but for [...] jumping and running events they get together, but what happens there is a lot of studies only start measuring children just prior to puberty, and what they're capturing there is if there's no difference between boys and girls at say 9, 10, 11 it's because the girls have advanced in maturation. They've actually started to mature earlier than boys so they have that momentary sort of advantage as girls because they went into the growth spurt a little bit earlier.

So what you're seeing is - because we all know that girls have about a two-year head start on puberty compared to boys - so you would see... everybody knows this, like if you see children around grade five, four, five and six sometimes, little girls look really mature and the boys still look very childish. And so if you're just measuring the difference between boys and girls starting from that stage and then through puberty it looks like there's no difference between boys and girls but then the puberty happens but if you actually start earlier there's a big difference then it gets smaller.

I do note there that she's primarily citing about records, and you've been talking about qualifying times, so we're discussing different parts of the distribution. It's not a simple single axis.

Looking at that study, it does seem swimming is a less male-favouring sports, compared to track and field, which is Coach Blade's area.

And if there's no real difference at young ages, then does skeletal shape maybe favour males less than in running and jumping? It's more about power?

(Evolutionarily speaking, I can see why males would have been more fine-tuned for running than swimming...)

Hard to get any easily available UK data for even younger swimmers as they usually can’t compete until age 8. But, looking at the actual times swum in club level competition it was noticeable that for the 8s / 9s the girls often swam faster than boys in the same age group.

Studies have found no differences in the physical characteristics of pre pubescent boy and girl swimmers, but once puberty kicks in male performance surges ahead of female, and males and females peak at different ages for the same stroke / distance too.

I have no issue with any of them being in the Olympics overall. I just smack my head on my desk when I see the IOC on one hand having events with an equal spilt of the two sexes on one hand, then on the other state “TWAW”. How their brains don’t explode I’ll never understand.

Because they're not engaging them?