Drag and trans - help me learn

[Dollpiglet]

I'm keen to learn about all sides of the gender ideology discussions and one issue I'm struggling with is how drag differs from trans.

I do feel that drag is offensive to women (and drag king's to men) and I agree with those who draw parrallels with black face. The 'it's a tradition/art form' arguments are also lost on me. Black face was also a tradition

So what I'm struggling with is that I have established in my mind that dressing up and pretending to be of the opposite sex is offensive. Now how is that different from being trans? I realise stonewall umbrella places drag under trans but I mean how is drag different to being a transwoman for example.

Is it in the intent to mock vs a genuine lifestyle change?

I admit I am not knowledgeable about these issues, I don't know any trans people, so please educate me.

Hi, I think if you want to learn about trans issues and lives you should ask elsewhere. This board is about women’s rights, and our perspective on trans issues are only on where they interact and conflict with women’s rights. We’re not spokespeople for trans people.

Drag queens are performing an act. Being trans means that you feel you have been born in the wrong body and are expressing how you should look. Interestingly it is often a very traditional expression of what a woman should look like but all the same they are very different things. Plus of course drag is a caricature of a woman

As far as I can work out:

Transwomen are men. Drag Queens are men.
Transwomen sometimes “present” as “stereotypical” women but not always.
Drag Queens, when in drag, always “present” as “stereotypical” women, often using offensive stereotypes.

Most transwomen and Drag Queens retain their penis and testicles.
Some of both groups are gay but not all.
Some of both groups have autogynephilia.

Transwomen believe “woman” is a special “essence” not connected to biology. Even though many women don’t believe in this special “essence”.
Drag Queens don’t.

But you’ll need to ask Transwomen and Drag Queens to get their take on it.

@whatthejiggeries

Drag queens are performing an act. Being trans means that you feel you have been born in the wrong body and are expressing how you should look. Interestingly it is often a very traditional expression of what a woman should look like but all the same they are very different things. Plus of course drag is a caricature of a woman

FYI Being born in the wrong body is no longer used by Trans advocates.

Drag is an expression -piss take- of inner femininity, usually by gay men.

Trans is what you feel = what you are

@WorkingItOutAsIGo

Hi, I think if you want to learn about trans issues and lives you should ask elsewhere. This board is about women’s rights, and our perspective on trans issues are only on where they interact and conflict with women’s rights. We’re not spokespeople for trans people.

This is a fair point but I struggle with where to look. Twitter is a non starter as everything quickly turns to a bun fight with questionable sources. Any suggestions on where to find this info that isn't stonewall?

Ok so it comes down to intent - piss taking vs genuine feeling. And I guess the difference for observers who cannot necessarily guage intent is the degree of 'passing'? In that drag is deliberately ridiculous and obvious, trans is about disguising. I'm just trying to get this straight in my head! Although it doesn't seem like there is any clear answer

The thing is Doll, we get a lot of disingenuous posters here asking faux-naive questions about trans issues. They are just after screenshots for Twitter. So you are welcome here but I suggest you do the work of reading the many discussions here - search function is good - and then join the conversation, rather than asking us to do the work for you.

I completely understand that. You don't need to be concerned on my part as I don't really understand Twitter and not sure I've ever used the screenshot function it I get your point.

What I struggle with is finding those sources beyond this board, which is obviously going to be pro-gc. I find I understand the GC perspective but am woefully ignorant on the other side. I don't know any trans people, I don't want to get involved on twitter so where would be the best place to look for the 101 on what the other side of the debate is?

@Dollpiglet

Ok so it comes down to intent - piss taking vs genuine feeling. And I guess the difference for observers who cannot necessarily guage intent is the degree of 'passing'? In that drag is deliberately ridiculous and obvious, trans is about disguising. I'm just trying to get this straight in my head! Although it doesn't seem like there is any clear answer

Maybe look into some of the threads and see if any make sense to you.

As for passing tell that to pips bunce who won a woman of the year award for being a woman part time.
And Alex Drummond who is widening the bandwith of womanhood with theys beard and all.

Trans is not about passing, it's a "belief" thing.

You could try asking on Reddit.

www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/

I don't know any trans people, I don't want to get involved on twitter so where would be the best place to look for the 101 on what the other side of the debate is?

At the MN Zoomchat with Helen Joyce last night about her new book, Trans, she said she’d had the same problem. She’d tried very hard to find sources that would lay out the pro-gender ideology arguments clearly and rationally for her. She couldn’t.

Reddit seems like a rabbit hole too. Maybe this is a key issue then, that actually it's very hard to work out what the arguments are without resorting to wading through social media

I would say that drag is done for money, trans is not.

I don't believe drag Queens as a rule, identify as women. It is a parody of a woman.

Google is your friend.

I think drag, traditionally (it's got more vicious and let kink/AGPs in recently) is caricaturing the stereotypes wrongly associated with being female. Traits which gay men were often bullied for. I don't think drag is like black face, as it lampoons the gender role, not the female body. I know I'm in a minority here though.

I know some drag queens recently have blurred the lines, mocking periods and miscarriages, ruining it for everyone with their misogyny.

So drag queens are comfortable with their male bodies and sexuality but putting two fingers up at society telling them they are therefore "girly." Trans women are uncomfortable with who they are and feel that being girly means they are an actual girl.

It would be interesting to know the proportion of drag queens who think they are really women. I suspect it's very low, lower than male people who use a female avatar in a computer game, with huge breasts and hot pants.

@Dollpiglet

Reddit seems like a rabbit hole too. Maybe this is a key issue then, that actually it's very hard to work out what the arguments are without resorting to wading through social media

There might be academic articles on the topic, but I find queer theory 'intellectual' writing absolute garbage. It's usually nonsense dressed up in fancy words.

Dollpiglet - a good place is to look at educational materials for kids as you get a clear view of the propositions. For example Brook.

I think the sweeping statement that drag is offensive (and comparable with blackface) is inaccurate. I've certainly seen my fair share of misogynist bastard drag queens at pride marches and in provincial gay pubs over the years, but I've also seen intelligent, highly political drag queen performances. Some of them are taking the piss out of women, some are taking the piss out of gender stereotypes and/or commenting on the intersection of gender stereotypes and male homosexuality.

So, drag means different things to different people and has a long rich history - and trans means different things to different people and also has a long rich history. I think any line between the two is clearly pretty fuzzy (Eddie Izzard is an obvious example here). In general i think drag is a performance rather than someone's individual reality, but I'm sure there are exceptions and I imagine also that drag can be a stepping stone to trans for some people. I'm sure there are plenty of drag artists who feel supported by being included under the trans umbrella, as well as others who feel weirdly misrepresented.

I've been criticised on Twitter by black feminists for comparing drag to blackface so I no longer do it. Drag and blackface have very different backgrounds.

I find drag misogynistic. I find gender ideology misogynistic. So they have that in common.

Nell you're forgetting the visual gag there: where everyone is supposed to fall about laughing because a man is dressed as a woman. I wonder what that comedy on sight is based on? It couldn't be the fact that a man is degrading his status to punch down.
Why do you think the groom is often dressed as a girl on stags? Punishment for impending monogamy isn't it.

Also Eddie Izzard considers himself a woman lesbian nowadays, not a drag artist.

Obviously he has man mode for important acting roles.

I think these are very good points about drag which I'd not considered, so thank you for challenging me on that.

What I'm realising overall is this whole topic is so complicated and nuanced that unless you spend half your life wading through perspectives online then it's very hard to get a handle on what the message actually is. I guess that's why most 'normal' people just blindly go along with the pronouns and policy changes because it's too muddy to work out what is being kind and what is taking the piss.

@TheSlayer

Also Eddie Izzard considers himself a woman lesbian nowadays, not a drag artist.

Obviously he has man mode for important acting roles.

Yes, that shift from presenting himself as a man who enjoyed adopting a female persona on stage to someone who now apparently lives life moving between 'girl mode' and 'boy (man?) mode' was what I meant about the fuzziness of the distinction between trans and drag. See also: different perspectives on whether Marsha P Johnson of the Stonewall riots was a gay man or a trans woman (all infinitely harder when people aren't around to speak for themselves!).

I think there's an important difference between a stag being dragged up by his drunken friends, and a carefully curated drag performance that builds on a generations-old institution of the gay male scene. I don't think drag is generally about 'lol, it's a man in a dress' - actually, I think looking spectacular in a highly-stylised and not-actually-representative-of-women way is quite a serious business for many drag queens.

@IsItAKindofDream

As far as I can work out:

Transwomen are men. Drag Queens are men.
Transwomen sometimes “present” as “stereotypical” women but not always.
Drag Queens, when in drag, always “present” as “stereotypical” women, often using offensive stereotypes.

Most transwomen and Drag Queens retain their penis and testicles.
Some of both groups are gay but not all.
Some of both groups have autogynephilia.

Transwomen believe “woman” is a special “essence” not connected to biology. Even though many women don’t believe in this special “essence”.
Drag Queens don’t.

But you’ll need to ask Transwomen and Drag Queens to get their take on it.

But trans is a broad label for all sorts of gender non conforming people. In the case of gender dysphoric people it is not about clothes. it is about the body. Nothing to do with drag or transvestites or the "autogynephilia" theory.