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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Macmillan Cancer Support

132 replies

SeggsMatters · 24/07/2021 11:19

I have to say as someone who has fundraised for Macmillan lots, including running Marathons. I am utterly disappointed they are using 'Gender Neutral' language when talking about Cervical Cancer.

But still only Men that need to worry about Prostate Cancer.

twitter.com/macmillancancer/status/1417771087232897026?s=21

OP posts:
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EmbarrassingAdmissions · 24/07/2021 17:20

I suppose one could argue that anyone looking at their site to get info/support for cervical cancer is likely already to be aware that they have (or had) a cervix. It is the literature around cervical screening that most needs to make it very clear which sex has a cervix.

On one of the previous times this came up for discussion, I was surprised to learn that there was a crossover of confusion between HPV vaccination such that some people were interpreting cervical to mean 'head and neck cancers' (because of the cervical spine) and the role of vaccination in preventing transmission via oral sex.

There is a need for clear and unambigous language that addresses the actual rate of health literacy.

ArabellaScott · 24/07/2021 17:44

Stonewall advice gives LGBTQ+ individuals an alternative way to identify which is right for them. We recognise that not everyone identifies with gendered language and by providing gender neutral policies and cancer information, we are allowing everyone to access the information which is appropriate for them. For example, we use gender neutral language in our cervical cancer information so that anyone who is concerned about cervical cancer or has had a diagnosis feels like we are able to provide support to them – moving towards our goal of supporting everyone who is living with cancer.

So why is their info on prostate, testicular etc not 'gender neutral'?

At least try to appear logically consistent.

littlbrowndog · 24/07/2021 17:46

🤣

Macmillan Cancer Support
merrymouse · 24/07/2021 18:26

We recognise that not everyone identifies with gendered language and by providing gender neutral policies

I don’t identify with gendered language (why would most people?)

That is why it is important to me that ‘woman’ can be used to refer only to sex.

Stonewall may wish to live in a fantasy world where we can identify out of sex. I can’t.

merrymouse · 24/07/2021 18:35

Well exactly littlebrowdog.

And that’s before you think about explaining that there are quite significant health consequences when some people don’t menstruate.

manatsu · 24/07/2021 19:25

FFS I just donated to them today. I don't mind if a company uses gender neutral for men as well as women, but they so rarely do. It comes across as extremely misogynistic and kind of sinister to read 'men' alongside 'people with vulvas'. No.

CharlieParley · 24/07/2021 19:36

As a teacher of ESL, I don't consider that sentence would confuse or mislead any woman (or man) with limited English.

As an ESL speaker who is also in contact with many other ESL speakers, I know that this sentence is confusing and misleading. And I know many ESL teachers are concerned that the imposed changes in language arising from this ideology are confusing for their pupils, so I have my doubts your assessment is an accurate reflection of your pupils' understanding.

The only context in which I knew about health issues related to anything "cervical" was spinal injuries and illnesses. Like the one my aunt suffered from.

I only learned about the word cervix when I was pregnant and the midwife explained what happens to the neck of the womb when you go into labour.

Yes, that is the word for cervix in my language - neck of the womb. That's what I thought the word was in English. That's also how the midwife explained what the cervix was - the neck of the womb.

And my English skills at this point were already near native level. Yet I still did not know the word cervix.

But we don't even have to restrict ourselves to ESL speakers. Almost half of all women do not know what a cervix is. Various surveys have all returned the same result.

ESL speakers do not make up that large a group. There are many many native speakers of English who do not know that word and who would not know that this sentence

"Each year, more than 3,200 people are diagnosed with cervical cancer in the UK."

refers to a cancer of the female reproductive system, that is, a cancer that only women can have.

Any health campaign using language that almost half of the target audience cannot understand is an embarrassing, abject failure in health communication. According to a friend of mine whose job includes writing health campaigns, this is an unacceptable, wholly misguided deviation from accepted practice and above all it's negligence that will cost lives. Real lives.

Given the recently publicised scandal in Scotland caused by miscommunication about cervical cancer in one particular patient group, I can only hope that at least NHS Scotland will rethink its approach to cervical cancer communications and speak to women about women.

dyslek · 24/07/2021 20:05

@LongBlobson

They use the term "woman" in their advice on Ovarian, Womb and Breast Cancer.

Yes I was going to say the same. It does seem to be that one instance of a gender-neutral term on the cervical cancer pages. Everywhere else they have referred to women in the same way that they have referred to men.

I do think it's important to make it clear that women have cervixes (is that the plural?) so it would be better for them to use the word women.

But the screenshots comparing the cervical cancer pages with the pages on men's cancers completely ignore all the pages on other women's cancers, and I think give a distorted impression of the website.

This makes no sense as it is possible for men to get breast cancer. Also cervix is the most difficult word for anyone with limited english, so while a woman might have a chance to realise ovarian, womb and breast might apply to her, cervix is much more technical and less well known.
BoreOfWhabylon · 24/07/2021 20:11

Well, the correct term is Uterine cervix, i.e. "Neck of the womb". They could at least explain that.

Aparallaxia · 25/07/2021 01:16

Wrote to them to express my feelings on their 'people with cervixes' cop-out.

BlackeyedSusan · 25/07/2021 03:29

not to mention the difficulty for those with dyslexia, low reading ability and thoise with communication disabilites wherre a whole wodge of text is off putting.

GreenUp · 25/07/2021 04:24

Think it's not enough just to write to the CEO - she is clearly captured with her she/her pronouns on twitter. We need to contact the trustees who have ultimate responsibility for the governance of the organisation. Only problem is I can't find their email addresses - if anyone has contact details to email please post....

www.macmillan.org.uk/about-us/who-we-are/our-trustees

Our trustees
Richard Murley

Iain Cornish

Jag Ahluwalia

Jane Cummings CBE

Kate Howe

Feilim Mackle

Mohammed Mehmet

Toby Strauss

Rachel Higham

Nick Owen

Dr Jean Abraham

Datun · 25/07/2021 07:33

It's always women's charities, companies, organisations that are targeted. It's always women's biology that must be separated from the word, and therefore the concept of, woman.

How many times are these places shown the inconsistency of their 'inclusive' language? But nothing happens. They know full well what men would say to being addressed as prostrate havers and ejaculaters.

It's men identifying as women who want the word women to not be contingent on female biology. Which is why the addition of words isn't suggested. 'Women and transmen' still attaches the word woman to female biology. Strange how we so rarely see it.

These places must be held accountable for why it's only women's language that is changed. It exposes the sexism, the misogyny and, importantly, who exactly is driving it.

Datun · 25/07/2021 07:34

And yes to the titillation aspect of vulva owners, vagina havers, etc. Completely unacceptable.

Datun · 25/07/2021 07:42

And honestly if the new "you can`t possibly know what reproductive organs you have, if you never had your chromosomes tested, because sex is a complicated spectrum and not at all binary" rethoric preveils at school in a generation 100% of pupils at university will not know.

Exactly. If you're non binary how do you know if you could get cervical cancer? Exactly how do you know.

StealthPolarBear · 25/07/2021 07:52

@GNCQ

It's always "person with a cervix" for women in need of healthcare, then the news reports have to say "woman" when referring to men who identify as a woman who committed a crime. They're never a "person with a penis" then are they.
That is an excellent excellent point. If TWAW, acceptance without exceptions, then presumably they should also be described by their genitals too?
AnyOldPrion · 25/07/2021 11:36

Yes I was going to say the same. It does seem to be that one instance of a gender-neutral term on the cervical cancer pages. Everywhere else they have referred to women in the same way that they have referred to men.

Interesting.

This may relate to the fact that cervical cancer is the only one which has a screening programme. Likely the screening program which, for obvious reasons, targets women, is seen as a point of contention.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 25/07/2021 11:48

I wonder if the push to gender-neutral terms, coinciding with the expansion of the HPV vaccination, is what is causing some of the confusion around who might develop cervical cancer?

This may relate to the fact that cervical cancer is the only one which has a screening programme. Likely the screening program which, for obvious reasons, targets women, is seen as a point of contention.

I'm conflicted on this. The evidence is unclear as to the value of some (previously proposed and currently active) screening programmes. There is a strong scientific debate about the value in various countries - but it's all grounded in the evidence and the published trials and follow-up data etc.

If there are people who want to abolish sex class screening programmes then they would be better advised to do it that way. And, in fact, they'd be doing healthcare systems everywhere a favour if an inefficient screening programme were axed and the money repurposed to, for example, research to identify indicators that somebody has an active and rapidly progressive or so-called 'indolent' cancer.

StealthPolarBear · 25/07/2021 12:06

There's a screening programme for breast Cancer sure ly

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 25/07/2021 12:10

@StealthPolarBear

There's a screening programme for breast Cancer sure ly
Yes, for women and not men.

There have been proposals for prostate cancer but the biomarkers were useless so that proposal was abandoned. However, that nuance is lost every time an angry man argues that healthcare systems largely fund breast and cervical screening for women but nothing that is exclusively for the male sex class.

BoreOfWhabylon · 25/07/2021 12:17

There's the breast screening programme for women only though. And McMillan has separate info for men and women.

The more I think about it, the more I think all advice/education/information should just make it perfectly clear upfront that it is biological sex that is being referred to, factor not gender.

As this recent BBC Radio4 programme manages to state quite clearly and unambiguously

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p098d1xd

BoreOfWhabylon · 25/07/2021 12:18

Don't know where "factor" came from there

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 25/07/2021 12:20

@BoreOfWhabylon

Don't know where "factor" came from there
It's the dolphins from the ovarian system like Douglas Adams almost warned us.

Or a huge machine learning expt. being run via auto-correct function.

AnyOldPrion · 25/07/2021 12:20

@StealthPolarBear

There's a screening programme for breast Cancer sure ly
True, though you have to be old for that one!
BoreOfWhabylon · 25/07/2021 12:20
Grin