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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

crowdfunding for mastectomies

71 replies

howard97A · 19/07/2021 17:12

I recently read a post that said there were 35,000 current crowdfunders for mastectomies.

I can't now find the post, and i can't find a source that quotes that figure.

Can anyone direct me to the post, or to a source?

OP posts:
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6
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 20/07/2021 17:47

If I search for top surgery on gofundme, I get 83 full pages of results, each with 12 crowdfunders on. I have done a small random sampling of these, and the ones I clicked through on were all funds for elective mastectomy. So that's 996 crowdfunders, across the USA and the UK.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 20/07/2021 17:49

But to clarify, those are 996 open crowdfunders. So, I don't know how long they take to reach target and how many have concluded so far this month.

SisterMonicaJoansHabit · 20/07/2021 20:51

@Wildgarlicpesto

People have autonomy over their own bodies and no-one else should be concerning themselves with anyone else's. Specially a bunch of strangers to you.

Do you think the same about the suicide ideation that trans people experience @SisterMonicaJoansHabit ?

Most trans folk experiencing suicidal thoughts and feelings, do so through a range of things - whether it's parents or others round them refusing to acknowledge their identity, being repeatedly misgendered or deadnamed, being denied treatment or surgery.

It's a thing at all ages, as well. It's not just our trans kids.

Many crowdfund to go private because the waiting lists are so, so long, and it's really important to be able to pick the right surgeon too.

Not all people seeking breast reduction or full top surgery even identify as trans or non binary.

We need to leave people alone, stop bothering people - those seeking removal of any kind are not harming YOU. What any of us wish to do or not do to our bodies does not need scrutinising by folks we've never met.

Don't want to contribute to a crowdfunder? Scroll on. Or don't go hunting for them. Leave people alone.

Wildgarlicpesto · 20/07/2021 20:55

@SisterMonicaJoansHabit

you said People have autonomy over their own bodies and no-one else should be concerning themselves with anyone else's.

So why is there such a focus on making everyone concerned about suicide when it's in your words, their autonomy over their bodies and no-one else should be concerned.

Why is one thing a problem that has to concern everyone but not the other?

Clymene · 20/07/2021 21:12

No @SisterMonicaJoansHabit. They are children and they need to be protected from a narrative pushed by doctors who will make millions from amputating healthy tissue.

All our children need protecting. All of them.

Over 30s are absolutely free to do what they want. But young people are increasingly regretting their transition and so it's vital that they don't do anything irreversible they may later regret.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 20/07/2021 21:48

SisterMonica

Did you know?

Post-mastectomy Pain Syndrome

After having breast cancer surgery, some women have problems with nerve (neuropathic) pain in the chest wall, armpit, and/or arm that doesn’t go away over time. This is calledpost-mastectomy pain syndrome (PMPS)because it was first noticed in women who had mastectomies, but it can also happen after other types ofbreast-conserving surgery(such as a lumpectomy).

Symptoms of PMPS

The classic symptoms of PMPS are pain and tingling in the chest wall, armpit, and/or arm. Pain may also be felt in the shoulder or surgical scar. Other common complaints include: numbness, shooting or pricking pain, or unbearable itching. Most women with PMPS say their symptoms are not severe.

How common is PMPS?

Studies have shown that between 20% and 30% of women develop symptoms of PMPS after surgery. It's most common after operations that remove tissue in the upper outside portion of the breastor the underarm area.

PMPS is thought to be linked to damage done to the nerves in the armpit and chest during surgery. But the causes are not known for sure. Women who are younger, who have had a fullaxillary lymph node dissection(ALND) and not just a sentinel lymph node biopsy, or who were treated withradiationafter surgery are more likely to have problems with PMPS. Because ALND is done less often now, PMPS is less common than it once was.

Managing PMPS

It is important to talk to your doctor about any pain you are having. PMPS can cause you to not use your arm the way you should, and over time you could lose the ability to use it normally.

PMPS can be treated. Some pain medicines, even some as strong asopioids (narcotics)don't always work well for nerve pain, but there are medicines and treatments that do work for this kind of pain. Talk to your doctor to get the pain control you need.

amp.cancer.org/treatment/treatments-and-side-effects/physical-side-effects/pain/post-mastectomy-pain-syndrome.html

Has anyone got any research to say that PMPS is less common after elective mastectomies?

SisterMonicaJoansHabit · 20/07/2021 22:28

Anyone of any age who doesn't appropriately research possible complications of any medical procedure is a bit of an idiot really, if they then experience a side effect or complication resulting from the procedure.

It's sad that there are so many possible problems, following procedures done for any reason. But people need encouraging to look into every eventuality that could occur before they make their choice.

And it isn't just about the children. Thousands of transgender adults are only coming out, or taking steps to do something about it, at this late stage decades on, because we didn't have the knowledge or understanding or support or transparency we have now, whatever someone's issue.

I nearly lost a mtf friend because they were in such a deep and desperate depression because of their denial and trying to carry on in the body they were born in, so as not to upset their family. They didn't want to be a burden. She's doing wonderfully since she's been supported and welcomed as who she identifies as. The drinking stopped, the suicide attempts and self harm stopped. They're so calm and positive now.

Friend is early thirties.

I have also lost friends who couldn't hack being the sex they were born with. This is why it's so important to be supportive.

Watch. Wait. Support. Accept pronouns. Even if it's genuinely just a phase of confusion and self exploration for the child. Better that, and that the child feels supported and valid and heard, than risk the mental health and even life of a child it young person (who may well last til they're not so young to take their life either).

I have another friend waiting for her elderly and close minded but much loved parents to not be around anymore so she can transition. She may still have a very long wait, and dearly loves her parents, so isn't wishing them away, either. But can you imagine your child knowing how you feel about transfolk, and living like that, because of the fear of your scorn, of losing you?

I could never put my children through that.

And saying that because I say what someone's autonomy should be over this in relation to the interference of strangers, that therefore you shouldn't care about them committing suicide either - I don't need to point out what's wrong about that, do I. Come on.

BigGreenOlives · 20/07/2021 22:36

@SisterMonicaJoansHabit
“ Anyone of any age who doesn't appropriately research possible complications of any medical procedure is a bit of an idiot really, if they then experience a side effect or complication resulting from the procedure.”

I don’t believe that 18 year olds or even 21 year olds can fully understand the impact of surgery. I’m basing that on neutro-science.

Why do teens have more road traffic accidents than those in their 30s? Why do teens not work hard while they’re at school when learning is as easy as it’s going to be? Why do teens go tombstoning or buy dodgy drugs from strangers?

BigGreenOlives · 20/07/2021 22:39

And adding to that, how many adults are still in the job/profession they wanted when they were 17/8? Let alone 14. People change as they grow up. Having irreversible surgery prevents change.

SisterMonicaJoansHabit · 20/07/2021 23:07

I have to try sleep in a moment. So I can't stay and hash it out. But what I'm trying to say is that you don't have to go totally into getting them into the gender clinic, agreeing to push for the treatments and so on... Just be supportive. If parents can help facilitate appropriate research into all the procedures and options including extensive analysis of conditions caused by the surgeries, you're setting them up to be a million more times informed than the youngsters who don't have the support of their parents and will be more likely to make rash ill-informed judgements.

I've seen some of the younger cohort online and it's the ones without familial support who are going off the rails.

If people aren't willing to accept that trans men are men and so on, then at least see it from the POV that these are women fighting for the right to do as they see fit with their own bodies.

I had this fight with getting sterilised. And so did many of my friends the same age as I. Even getting coils removed when it turned out they were very incompatible and caused such pain I was delirious and sobbing at the hospital - I was frowned upon for wanting to make a decision about my own body.

For a long explanation's worth of reasons, not sterilising me led to my nearly dying. And even then it was only done begrudgingly.

I'm denied the hysterectomy I need for my chronic debilitating endometriosis.

How about people realise that whether someone identifies as a woman or not, if they've been born a woman, these transfolk are still having their choices over their bodies dictated by others.

For me, feminism should be including the right for anyone born female to change their body, and identity. You don't have to embrace it but you can let people carry on, they aren't harming you.

Clymene · 20/07/2021 23:40

Do I think adult women who are suffering from debilitating bleeding and or crippling endo should be able to get hysterectomies? Yes, and the barriers to women getting healthcare that they need are too high.

That has nothing to do with removing healthy breasts though.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 20/07/2021 23:48

Anyone of any age who doesn't appropriately research possible complications of any medical procedure is a bit of an idiot really, if they then experience a side effect or complication resulting from the procedure.

I'd get more compassion out if I squeezed a stone.

It's sad that there are so many possible problems, following procedures done for any reason. But people need encouraging to look into every eventuality that could occur before they make their choice.

Yeah, that's what us horrible feminists are actually trying to do. While other people ask us to shush and suppress information.

For me, feminism should be including the right for anyone born female to change their body, and identity. You don't have to embrace it but you can let people carry on, they aren't harming you.

What about supporting people born female to resist the social pressures on them to change their body? I don't need feminism to support me to change my body- patriarchy and capitalism do that. I want as much freedom as men do to live in my body as it is.

It's strange, the unequal social expectations on each sex. One is expected to shave their legs, put make-up on, dye their hair when it begins to go grey, and the other just has to shower before work. I wonder if you know which sex is which?

It's a total turn-up for the books that currently sloganeering so strongly focuses on telling us that "women can have penises" and "trans women don't owe you femininity", but no-one seems to tell natal females that they don't owe the world androgyny or masculinity. Even though there might be a 20-30% chance of chronic pain after a mastectomy?

If women can have penises, why can't men have breasts?

Yet again, even when they're trans, the burden of complying with social expectations seems to be heavier on people of one sex than the other. How strange, that the world is being expected to mould itself to fit one set of people, and the other set of people are being expected to alter themselves to fit.

HerrenaHarridan · 20/07/2021 23:50

If only the world were full of people like @SisterMonicaJoansHabit

I hope your friend finds peace. I have seen what parental rejection does to folk, it’s grim

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 20/07/2021 23:54

People who would tell transmen living with PMPS that they're "a bit of an idiot really", Herrena?

No, we don't really need more people like that, thanks.

Wildgarlicpesto · 21/07/2021 00:04

Really@HerrenaHarridan ?

All that manipulative bullshit? You want the world full of that?

Aparallaxia · 21/07/2021 00:17

www.opposingviews.com/health/belgian-man-nathan-verhelst-44-dies-euthanasia-after-dismay-over-sex-change-surgery

This page mentions a second person but I can't find any more references to them:
www.the11thhourblog.com/post/when-transition-regret-pays

EishetChayil · 21/07/2021 00:18

What about supporting people born female to resist the social pressures on them to change their body? I don't need feminism to support me to change my body- patriarchy and capitalism do that. I want as much freedom as men do to live in my body as it is.

This. So, so true.

Aparallaxia · 21/07/2021 00:47

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

People who would tell transmen living with PMPS that they're "a bit of an idiot really", Herrena?

No, we don't really need more people like that, thanks.

Maybe it was a bit harsh. One wouldn't say it to someone's face... but TBH, it's true. Part of being a grown-up is being able to look out for oneself—what one eats and drinks, where one spend's one money and what one spends it on, who one's friends are, how to behave towards others... you know the kind of thing. And researching the background to any pill one takes or treatment or intervention one has is part of that—taking care of oneself. Being responsible.

It's not, if it goes wrong, it's necessarily your fault. But it's you who gets hurt, if it goes wrong. I have a few chronic health conditions. I have read about them, the treatments [no cures, sadly], the pills, the regimes, etc. Especially the meds, of course. Is it worth the side-effects? What if the side-effects might not show themselves for 10 years? How would future me feel about present me taking that stuff? It's complicated, it involves distancing yourself from your present needs and desires, and thinking about long-term effects on someone who will still be you.

This is one of the hardest things grown-ups do. They often louse it up. But one thing is clear: Adolescents are absolutely bloody hopeless at it. They live in an intense whorl of now-ness, of emotions that chop and change every hour or minute, of hormones and strange desires and aversions, as their bodies do weird things they cannot control. They can barely manage to focus on the end-of-term exams, let alone what they will feel like when they are 30. People over 20, as far as they're concerned, are all old, pathetic, bizarre relics of a forgotten world, and everything they say should be ignored. Only people of their own age know anything about anything.

Now, do you really think that such people, who want drastic surgery and life-long hormones and want them now, should simply get "affirmative care"? No repeated psychological assessments to discover other problems such as ADHD, autism, etc.; no prolonged discussions, involving parents, of the differences between sex and gender, of how society forces people to look and behave a certain way, of homosexuality; no monitoring over a period of years? Because that's what Mumsnetters believe. We're not a bunch of sadists. We really do care about kids. That's why we oppose allowing them to transition. Because they can always do it later, but whatever the propaganda says, they can't undo it.

Lots of us have trans friends and relatives. We're not bigots. We're not idiots, either. We look at research and try to evaluate it. We read books. We discuss what we find. And these are the conclusions we've come to so far: The presumption should be against transition for someone under 18. There will be exceptions. But transitioning should be made hard to do precisely because it is so bloody important.

GingerBeverage · 21/07/2021 09:29

@Aparallaxia That story is absolutely heartbreaking.

Nancy never stood a chance. That poor soul.

nationalpost.com/news/canada/terminally-transsexual-concerns-raised-over-belgian-euthanized-after-botched-sex-change

VodkaSlimline · 21/07/2021 09:34

There are a huge number of these crowdfunders - can only hope that the sheer number means very few of them will actually succeed.

Helleofabore · 21/07/2021 09:45

We need to leave people alone, stop bothering people - those seeking removal of any kind are not harming YOU.

Lovely.

Maybe you could send the message to the ones on social media to stop with the glamorising content. Where they ARE harming my family and others. Because the constant bombardment of how wonderful top surgery is, the euphoric nature of transition videos, the righteousness of ‘reply’ videos and so on, and so on, IS harmful in that it glamorises transition to the tweens and young teens who watch it.

And please don’t come and say, you shouldn’t be allowing your child to watch it then, when it is the trans friends that are the ones sharing the videos directly to them or showing them when they meet up.

Tibtom · 21/07/2021 10:20

SisterMonicaJoansHabit

You do realise suicide risk shoots up after transitioning? Maybe because the reasons you listed aren't the reason for feeling suicidal afterall? Maybe it is because of untreated mental illness that is glossed over and ignored in favour of 'it will all be ok when you transition'? May be because they have been led to believe that 'transmen are men' and then discover that cosmetic surgery and drugs doesn't change their sex?

FannyCann · 21/07/2021 10:46

Just posting this Twitter screenshot of the surgeon Christopher Inglefield for anyone who hasn't seen it. Personally I prefer my surgeons to remain fully dressed at all times.

I can't find it now, but there was a gmc investigation or complaint about him not following correct consent procedures iirc.

FannyCann · 21/07/2021 10:46

Whoops. Posted and forgot the screenshot.

crowdfunding for mastectomies
FannyCann · 21/07/2021 10:48

I also don't understand how it is acceptable to post full facial pictures of patients like this, all over the Internet. I guess that's private practice for you. Pretty sure it's a disciplinary offence in the NHS.

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