It's now on MSM - Laurel Hubbard

[highame]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transgender-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-in-eye-of-the-storm-at-toyko-olympics-zstnnk729

I saw last night that Al Jazeera had Laurel Hubbard in the strapline but didn't wait to see the news item. This now means it's worldwide and in countries where there would be very strong objections. I wonder how this will pan out

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

Wow. Of all the issues in the world that really are huge and complex and need enormous efforts to settle fairly — this really is not one of them.

Men competing against women in sports are cheating.

It’s as easy as that.

Exactly.

” This now means it's worldwide and in countries where there would be very strong objections.”

If you have in mind conservative Islamic countries, bear in mind that Iran uses transsexual surgery as gay conversion.

They are transex advocates in the cause of extreme homophobia, and would assume that a transwoman had all male parts removed.

@hedgehogger1

It's not complicated. If you have XY chromosomes you're competing in the men's category. Job done

Or a new mixed category. That way everyone gets to compete fairly.

Either:
Female and open category
Or
Male, female and mixed

Thanks for the token. It is worth a read of you haven't read it before. David Walsh wants us to be kind.

Complex? What a joke.

Hubbard comes from a relatively privileged background and competed in men's weightlifting with mediocre success before swapping to compete against women.

Let's not forget the women who have been pushed down the rankings. Kuinini 'Nini' Manumua of Tonga would have been in Hubbard's place.

Nini has now also been allowed to compete in the Olympics, under a special scheme to give under-represented countries more of a chance. Without Hubbard, another woman from a developing country could have had that opportunity.

If Hubbard comes in the top three, as is likely, another woman will have been cheated of an Olympic medal.

The injustice ripples all the way down the rankings, and its influence is likely to spread across other sports. That will be Laurel Hubbard's biggest effect on international sports.

Well I don't get why Hubbard would be an inspiration to lesbian, gay or bisexual athletes as they can and have competed in their own sex class (male or female) and aren't trying to change their class.
Also they neglect to mention that Hubbard is over 40 and we'll passed the normal age that most competitors retire and is still recovering from a broken arm and yet is still a medal contender 🤬🤬🤯

Since 2015, these rules have permitted transgender athletes to compete in female categories, provided they can show that they have been on hormone replacement therapy and lowered their testosterone levels to within ten nanomoles per litre for at least a year.

What is the range of nanomoles per litre in females?

Yet again they drag Caster Semenya into it. Whilst I have the greatest sympathy for her in an individual level, the simple fact is that her DSD (‘intersex’ condition) was not identified at birth, and she has testes. As I understand it most people with DSD do have a sex identifiable by DNA / gametes.

I found this... sorry I don’t know who created it...

Complex my arse! They use a lot if words to justify the complexity of something very simple.

My 11 year old daughter had sports day the other day and the racing was mixed sex.

She said "it's not fair, I'm a fast girl but a slow boy".

(Mixed racing was because they were in their house teams, but in her race of 8 she was the only girl!). She did challenge the teacher so I was super proud as normally she hates talking about women's rights and sexism related to this.

It's the simplest thing in the world - biological men should not compete against biological women where there is an advantage to either sex derived from their biology. The way biology and sports work means that men are usually the sex with the advantage, and for some team sports there is, in addition, a very real risk to women of serous injuries (e.g. rugby). The rest is woke bullshit.

I am struggling to understand how men competing in women’s events will inspire more gay kids to try sports

@Toseland

I found this... sorry I don’t know who created it...

Wow.

So if that graph is legit, the testosterone level allowed by the IOC is twice the highest level found in women. And this is after taking testosterone reducing drugs.

That graph needs circulating far and wide (with credited sources).

The IOC is not fit for purpose.

Has Nina (the woman those place Hubbard was awarded) been granted another place??

@PamDenick

Has Nina (the woman those place Hubbard was awarded) been granted another place??

Yes - Nini was given a special pass - however, that means that somebody who would have had that pass from an underrepresented country has been bumped. Just to stop some of the embarrassment.

And all because the various commissions and bodies couldn't deliver a plain, No to a privileged millionaire on a matter as straightforward as this.

You'll need to flip the thread for ease of getting to it but the confirmation of Nini's invitation is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4280607-Nini-made-it-to-the-Olympics

@EmbarrassingAdmissions you're right, of course. They will fear the obvious reprisals that come with disagreeing that TWAW. What I'm talking about is the power of the mantra and its role in the hounding etc of which you speak.

TWAW is a cloak to conceal the reality that what's actually being said is MAW. It makes some men a kind of woman. TWAW makes it much harder for average people to understand what's actually going on, and to object. If these "women" are women it must be wrong to exclude then from the category of 'women', spaces, sports etc.

It makes it easier for gender identity activists to undermine reality, and I believe it has been key to the success of their movement.

How far would they have got by saying "these men should have access to women's spaces"? Not as far, and not as fast, would be my guess

Intersex issues are complex. Trans issues are not.

Seems that the times are completely unaware of Barret competing for Canada in archery eh?

Once the male body has been through puberty, restricting testosterone does not undo all of the massive benefits received.

Men should not compete in women's sports.

@Jackgrealishscurtains

Yeah, it's soooooooo complicated because it's 'only women's sport so it's not even that important'.

it's this isn't it?

If fairness in men's sport was being compromised it wouldn't be complicated at all, because that's important

Of course its not complicated, it's cheating.

It's cheating.

And I couldn't care less that 'it's about the rules'. The people making and following the rules are cheating.

Nic Williams spent fucking ages actually compiling a meta analysis of all the studies to prove that these men, no matter how much they reduce their testosterone, carry an innate advantage, that is blisteringly obvious to everybody, including those who deny it.

She had to do this, to counter the quite risible argument that reducing testosterone reduces the advantages that testosterone has already given.

And yet some people still appear to be saying it's complicated, and what about the science??

We've done the fucking science, you cheaters.

Has anyone advocating for trans people to compete in the category of their gender identity thought about the impact this has on trans men? It pretty much wipes them out of sport if they have to compete in the male category.
And it's illogical to say trans women compete with women because they are women but trans men aren't men. Where are the TRA voices up in arms against this exclusion of trans men from competitive sport?

@QuarantineQueen

Has anyone advocating for trans people to compete in the category of their gender identity thought about the impact this has on trans men? It pretty much wipes them out of sport if they have to compete in the male category. And it's illogical to say trans women compete with women because they are women but trans men aren't men. Where are the TRA voices up in arms against this exclusion of trans men from competitive sport?

Exactly. Transmen have no hope at all. Totally excluded from both categories.

No-one cares.

I wonder why.

@QuarantineQueen

I've been wondering the same. Either trans people all compete in the category for their adopted gender, in which case biologically female people lose out twice. Or all trans people compete as women, which makes the categories 'men' and 'biological females, whatever their gender identity, plus anyone born male who identifies as a woman'. Which is also unfair to women, though slightly less unfair to trans men.

I'd be interested to know how trans men feel about the issue - would they rather compete against/play with men even if this puts them at risk of physical harm, and means their chances of winning are vanishingly small?

@FemaleAndLearning

Complex my arse! They use a lot if words to justify the complexity of something very simple.

My 11 year old daughter had sports day the other day and the racing was mixed sex.

She said "it's not fair, I'm a fast girl but a slow boy".

(Mixed racing was because they were in their house teams, but in her race of 8 she was the only girl!). She did challenge the teacher so I was super proud as normally she hates talking about women's rights and sexism related to this.

Was all racing mixed sex? I’d be talking to the school about the equality act. Girls, or most girls, are being discriminated against based on their sex because they aren’t fast enough to compete. Your dd was also discriminated against as she had no chance of winning.