David Aaronovitch Review of Helen Joyce's Book

[Igneococcus]

In the Times today:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a9738a12-e57d-11eb-afdb-c7b01afbcfc5?shareToken=bde4e05d2955fb1682ae3da09be1f707

Final paragaph:

"I’m off the fence. I will call people by the name and pronouns they tell me they want to be called by. I am prepared to defend their right not to be discriminated against at work and in shops, to defend them against bullying and harassment. But as Joyce says so passionately, that doesn’t change reality. A penis is a male sex organ, men don’t have babies. Women exist."

I’m not 100% sure but he listens to a lot of talk radio

Thanks to the wonders of technology I can tell you all that Soros is only mentioned once in the entire book. The only point made is that he is one of a number of billionaires who have made large donations to groups like HRC (American equivalent of Stonewall) which are therefore well funded. Given that his donations are quite open this is hardly an allegation that he is involved in a conspiracy.

Separately, it is noted that some campaigners have had a deliberate policy of maintaining a low profile, but again, this is well documented, and it is not in any away linked to Soros.

Here is a new sharetoken @ValancyRedfern

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a9738a12-e57d-11eb-afdb-c7b01afbcfc5?shareToken=f0a006ad9fb82ee1f373f5562f9f06eb

I can't do sharetokens on every device I use, not sure why.

@Igneococcus

Here is a new sharetoken *@ValancyRedfern*

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a9738a12-e57d-11eb-afdb-c7b01afbcfc5?shareToken=f0a006ad9fb82ee1f373f5562f9f06eb

I can't do sharetokens on every device I use, not sure why.

archive version in case share token lapses:

archive.is/2hW0n

@merrymouse

Thanks to the wonders of technology I can tell you all that Soros is only mentioned once in the entire book. The only point made is that he is one of a number of billionaires who have made large donations to groups like HRC (American equivalent of Stonewall) which are therefore well funded. Given that his donations are quite open this is hardly an allegation that he is involved in a conspiracy.

Separately, it is noted that some campaigners have had a deliberate policy of maintaining a low profile, but again, this is well documented, and it is not in any away linked to Soros.

But, but merry the twitter TRAs say she has based her whole book around an antisemitic conspiracy theory! Surely they wouldn't exaggerate or lie

I'd laugh my arse off if Helen Joyce sued Katy Montgomerie for libel.

I bought the book on kindle today after reading his review. So far it’s excellent - clear, sensible, compassionate and yes, Soros is mentioned once almost in passing. Highly recommend it.

@ScreamingMeMe

I'd laugh my arse off if Helen Joyce sued Katy Montgomerie for libel.

Ooo, I'd definitely dig out a fiver for that

Should have added, yes she mentions Soros and two other billionaires but nowhere does she mention their religion, because obviously that’s irrelevant.

Dear Nicola Sturgeon, please read this plea from a sister feminist about the trans debate – Susan Dalgety

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/dear-nicola-sturgeon-please-read-this-plea-from-a-sister-feminist-about-the-trans-debate-susan-dalgety-3310241?amp

Ive read it I think it's brilliant. Here's another review of Joyce's book, this one's from the Evening Standard: www.standard.co.uk/culture/books/trans-when-ideology-meets-reality-helen-joyce-review-b944183.html

I'm snaffling "totalitarian declension" too!

My head is currently in Tudor England and the struggle for control over religious orthodoxy. I can't help feeling the strong whiff of burning books (and flesh) I keep getting might not be coming solely from there ...

Settling down with my Kindle this weekend.

Glen Greenwaldt.

🎵 Climb every mouuuuuutaaain🎶

@Igneococcus

Here is a new sharetoken *@ValancyRedfern*

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a9738a12-e57d-11eb-afdb-c7b01afbcfc5?shareToken=f0a006ad9fb82ee1f373f5562f9f06eb

I can't do sharetokens on every device I use, not sure why.

Thank you!

I thought it was an excellent book. 90% of the case studies are well known here, but they are so clearly described and discussed that it's like a reference book for the arguments feminists make on this forum. The last couple of chapters were newer to me. Really interesting and encouraging ideas on what next in the last chapter. It explains why trans rights as understood by TRAs are unlikely to segue into mainstream acceptance as gay rights did. I hadn't come across the distinction between crony ideas and merit ideas before - thought that nailed it.

Interesting section in chapter 13 - she asks "why did the secular, feminist resistance appear in the UK, rather than elsewhere?" And answers with lots of sound suggestions, including

"In any list of the UK’s advantages, though, Mumsnet takes pride of place. Its importance is partly because of Silicon Valley bias and censorship, but also because it is highly unusual in being a female-dominated online space."

Didn't actually see any anger - she is good at swerving / staunching nitpicks and personal vendettas. Genuinely can't see what Aaronovitch saw there - can anyone? She says no, politely and firmly, with reasons ...

DA has been having twitter conversations with Roz kaveney the trans activists, who is telling him that he's behind the scientific consensus because he thinks trans women have an advantage in sport against women. And he's been batting away digs by other twitterers, claiming he believes in intelligent design, and saying he's promoting antisemitism.

One thing that always happens is the looney and unreasonable responses continue opening the eyes if anyone who enters the discussion in this way. Most people think if they are reasonable and can explain how they only have concerns in a few areas, eg sport, and surely everyone can see the issue there, then the trans advocates will be reasonable too, and a discussion can begin and solutions found .......

@Igneococcus

That's about the extent of Barnsey's contribution to the discussion that there will be badgherkin (is there such a thing as a bad gherkin?), that the progressives have won. It's pretty much all that Barnsey ever says, just repeats it over and over again.

Oh my, @Igneococcus - are you doubting my existence? I say I am a bad gherkin, therefore I am, and I exist .

Didn't actually see any anger - she is good at swerving / staunching nitpicks and personal vendettas. Genuinely can't see what Aaronovitch saw there - can anyone? She says no, politely and firmly, with reasons ...

Even though Aaronovitch is normally someone I like, I think the answer is simple: women saying no, politely and firmly, with reasons, is perceived by men as anger.

Given what Joyce is contending with - an onslaught on women's rights, while being told there is no onslaught, along with constant exhortations to be kind while being threatened with murder and rape - the remarkable thing is she manages to remain polite while being firm. But any assertion by a woman of the importance of women's rights is seen by men as women being angry.

@ScreamingMeMe

Glen Greenwaldt.

🎵 Climb every mouuuuuutaaain🎶

Interesting. There seems to be more and more reversing going on. I wonder if he'll have the balls to apologise to JK Rowling.

Fooking hell, #14 on Amazon's bestseller list. That is very high.

www.amazon.co.uk/Trans-When-Ideology-Meets-Reality/dp/0861540492?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Amazon seem to have sold out of the hardcover. Only available as an ebook, it seems.

Glenn Greenwald is getting there - at this rate he will have properly peaked just before the earth dives into the sun. Still, shouldn't grumble I guess.

I just went to look at the Amazon reviews (there are two one star reviews now - not verified purchases either surprise surprise - going on about bigotry and genitals) and while I was looking, Amazon actually recommended something similar they thought I might like.

Unsporting: How Trans Activism and Science Denial are Destroying Sport by Linda Blade.

So that's on my wish list as well now.

I one star reviews by people who clearly have never read the book act as a recommendation really. If they've gone to the trouble of an admittedly brief fake review, and especially if they say the book should be banned, it's probably a well-written book that makes a good point.