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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The reactionary Feminist Mary Harrington brilliant interview on Triggernometry

36 replies

Childrenofthestones · 15/07/2021 15:06

I cant see this posted anywhere else.
A great interview with a brilliant mind, covering amongst other things the trans issue, the effects of porn and what the future may hold for us all.

OP posts:
Childrenofthestones · 15/07/2021 15:08

Oops, forgot the link.....Obviously the brilliant mind isn't catching. 😳

OP posts:
nauticant · 15/07/2021 15:22

I liked it, my responses were a mixture of: I agree with that, that's interesting, and that's rubbish. It was enjoyable to listen along while thinking and not simply agreeing.

TheBatPig · 15/07/2021 23:12

Enjoyed listening. Agreed with some aspects, disagreed with others. But worth listening to and an interesting interview

NotTheFunKindOfFeminist · 15/07/2021 23:46

Good stuff. I love Triggernometry. The presenters have got really good at interviewing.

DaisiesandButtercups · 16/07/2021 11:41

That was absolutely brilliant, thank you for sharing it Childrenofthestones.

I love hearing Mary speak, there is no one else that I know of who articulates such ideas, many of which really ring true for me. I would love to spend an afternoon in a pub garden with her, she is one of the most interesting people I am aware of at the moment in my opinion.

PrincessNutella · 16/07/2021 15:42

Thank you! This really is brilliant and quite mindbending. I think her point about not believing in progress is subtle (yet still valuing feminism) is very interesting and true. It reminds me of how mindbending I also found reading Darwin, and how I think most people, especially people of a liberal bent, misunderstand what he was saying. People are constantly using the word "evolved" to suggest that someone has reached a higher state than something that existed previously, but that is not what Darwin is suggesting at all, from my reading. After all, any creature that exists now has evolved as much as it has needed to evolve to survive to the current day, so worms and fungi are just as evolved as you and I are. She seems to be making the point that within our human lifetimes, there are certain trade-offs between, say, obligation and liberation, and you can't outrun those by simply claiming the mantle of "progress."

nauticant · 16/07/2021 19:01

In a similar vein I was stopped in my tracks when I came across criticism of the Whig Interpretation of History. I'd imagine that's right up MH's street.

dyslek · 16/07/2021 19:06

I was looking forward to this but the first sentence, a clip before the show even starts was her saying something that is rubbish, which put me off.

She said there is tention between acknowledging physiological differences and wanting equality, has anyone told that to smaller unathletic men? because they seem to be getting equality just fine.

LivingLaVidaCovid · 16/07/2021 19:16

@dyslek

I was looking forward to this but the first sentence, a clip before the show even starts was her saying something that is rubbish, which put me off.

She said there is tention between acknowledging physiological differences and wanting equality, has anyone told that to smaller unathletic men? because they seem to be getting equality just fine.

Interesting!

I am yet to listen but i do think being short is one of the worst "crimes" you can commit as male and they are definitely disadvantaged vs tall men qboth in terms of partner selection and salary (check out CEO height bias)
Respect as a boss is harder to get in the office as a short man vs a tall one, in a similar to a female vs a man. Is it difficult to the same degree, almost certainly not bit still...

Summerhillsquare · 16/07/2021 21:50

She is a hard thinker and thought provoking writer. I often disagree with her (lockdowns, the sincerity and intentions of Tories!) But I always learn something. Finn Mackay is the same on the 'other', trans leaning, feminist side.

SmokedDuck · 16/07/2021 22:28

I really like Harrington, she's thoughtful and also a very clear writer who doesn't stoop to games.

It's interesting about her view of balance and progress, and I hadn't twigged those were her views, but it's probably why I find so much of what she says sensible. The idea of materialist progress, especially in the moral realm, is one which IMO causes a lot of errors in logic. Was it Bertrand Russel or one of the other philosophers of that period who said that this was a holdover from Christianity, but oddly translated into a kind of faith about social progress in the material world. Hegel plus Marx, I suppose.

Anyway, as soon as you jettison this sort of faith in progress (to what) and the view of time that comes with it, political thought has to become much more cautious, and right answers seem much more difficult and provisional, restricted to a particular place and time.

I also think the idea that liberation and control are a balance is really important. The basic point, to me, is that if you want a society with a lot of legal freedoms, people need to have a lot of interior control, if you don't want chaos. And how do you create people with that sort of interior control? It's not easy, and not really amenable to very easy-going sorts of childrearing or even education. Alterably, a society with strict legal/social controls can allow people to have a lot of freedom of thought.

SmokedDuck · 16/07/2021 22:30

@dyslek

I was looking forward to this but the first sentence, a clip before the show even starts was her saying something that is rubbish, which put me off.

She said there is tention between acknowledging physiological differences and wanting equality, has anyone told that to smaller unathletic men? because they seem to be getting equality just fine.

I think she was talking about women, as a group. That differences in women's physiology, things like reproductive role, will mean "equality" has to be understood as something different than being the same.
DaisiesandButtercups · 17/07/2021 07:06

I definitely agree about moral progress. I don’t think that we have genuinely made moral progress since the beginning of humanity.

We’ve made technological progress constantly throughout the existence of humanity but as Mary suggests we continually make gains and losses as a result.

When reading classic literature or anthropology, or literature from other countries and cultures I am always struck by how much people are alike in every time and place.

Aparallaxia · 17/07/2021 07:38

I think when push came to shove she'd agree that her kid not dying before its 5th birthday of measles, whooping cough, TB, cholera, or smallpox is, well, progress. Also her own not dying in childbed. What would she say are compensations for those gifts? And they belong to almost everyone (or every woman) in the West. Those in less developed, less rich, even more authoritarian, even more corrupt countries, without access to vaccines or clean drinking water or flushing loos or education or a relatively uncorrupt judiciary or a vote that actually determines the winner of the election or or or, would say she's talking bollocks.

But, yes, only women can breastfeed. Humans cannot change sex. The Pope is still Catholic. She's right about all those.

As for family, I agree with George Carlin: the secret to a happy life is a large, close-knit, loving family in another city.

DaisiesandButtercups · 17/07/2021 07:46

Vaccines are technological progress Aparallaxia not moral progress and you absolutely make the point that there has been no moral progress by your point about the existence of less developed, less rich, authoritarian and even more corrupt countries. Humanity has not got any better or any worse morally than we always has been.

We wouldn’t have a global pandemic now without the technological progress that we have made since we were gatherer/hunters, neither would we have the climate crisis so I agree with her that we make gains and losses.

Abhannmor · 17/07/2021 16:39

@DaisiesandButtercups

I definitely agree about moral progress. I don’t think that we have genuinely made moral progress since the beginning of humanity.

We’ve made technological progress constantly throughout the existence of humanity but as Mary suggests we continually make gains and losses as a result.

When reading classic literature or anthropology, or literature from other countries and cultures I am always struck by how much people are alike in every time and place.

Indeed. I think John Gray made this point when the photographs of the Abu Ghraib tortures came out. Our progress is only in technology it seems. Ethically we are in the Dark Ages.
Aparallaxia · 17/07/2021 21:37

I disagree about moral progress. This does not mean that the evils you refer to have disappeared. But I think of what life was like in the Athenian democracy, say, the economy of which relied on slave-labour; no-one, anywhere, was saying slavery is wrong and we must end it. "Respectable" women were baby-machines; they lived in a separate part of the house, and men were ridiculously anxious about the possibility of their wives receiving lovers there and having babies by them that would be passed off as legitimate. Rape was basically considered an offence against the male guardian of a girl or woman, his rights of property in her. No-one was saying women should have the vote, women should have equal opportunities, women should have control over their own fertility. (The 'Lysistrata' is a comedy, not a documentary.) Unwanted babies were left on rubbish-heaps. There were no international rules about how to behave in war, about leaving civilians out if it, about the treatment of prisoners. And Athens was surrounded by states without even the rudimentary "democratic oversight" provided by the Athenian system—mainly hereditary autocracies.

Yes, people continue to behave abominably. But long decades, if not centuries, of voices calling them out, of selfless protest, of stubborn resistance, have produced some improvements, usually in the form of legislation, independent courts, and international agreements. These are not always effective. Proving someone did something in court is not easy. Convictions for rape in Britain are ridiculously low, still today—but where there has been change, it is for the better. Most people now regard rape as a brutal exercise of power, not an expression of love. Husbands no longer have the right to beat their wives or have sex with them whenever they want. Even in the late 70s/early 80s, when I worked for the Law Society which at the time adminsitered the civil legal aid scheme, it was rare to grant a wife aid to get a restraining order against and maintenance from her husband. It was only when the kids were in danger too that it became automatic. And it was generally accepted that she would go back to her abuser, because she had no-where else to go. The fact that we still need women's refuges is appalling. The fact that we have them at all is an ethical advance.

Again, in the Victorian era prostitution used to be understood as a choice driven by nymphomania coupled with moral degeneracy, not an economic necessity forced on poor girls and women. Women working in factories and mills weren't allowed any time off to nurse their babies, who at lunchtine were brought to them by their other children to be fed. The commonest operation at the Royal Free Children's Hospital in 1930 was breaking and re-setting the leg-bones of kids with rickets. This was both a technological and an ethical advance, set against a background of widespread pollution and malnutrition. But kids don't get rickets anymore in post-industrial countries, and that's a direct result of huge changes, enforced by the government since the 1950s, in how heat and power are generated. I look at photos of my home town in the 19th c. when it was the home of "King Cotton" and I wonder how anyone could have breathed that air for long. I was amongst the first generation of children to benefit from the clean air legislation.

But public health, including vaccinations, provision of sewers, provision of running water in homes, testing of air and water, cleaning of streets—all of these are not just technological advances. We have them not (just) because they can be done, but because people thought and still think they ought to be done. From John Snow to Jonas Salk and beyond, enough doctors and medical researchers have been driven by the desire to have people live longer, suffer less, and lead healthier lives.

The fact that we now have publicly-scrutinized, officially recognized medical qualifications, even if some doctors practise who shouldn't, is a massive advance on the time when even doctors who wanted to do good didn't know what the fuck they were doing and you had to choose on the basis of personal recommendations, anecdotes, and salesman's patter. The institutions that set up tests for who can practise and who can't are basing their decisions on the vast extension of medical and scientific knowledge since the 19th c. True, there are fraudulent and incompetent doctors. But the fact that we think we ought to have such standards at all is ultimately an ethical matter, not a technical one. We think we ought to be able control doctors' power over our bodies, not because we can (or can try to do so) but because we have accepted autonomy as an ethical ideal. And we think those ideals should be accepted by everyone, and many NGOs and even governments are trying to make that a reality. How is that not progress? It's progress to have people saying, that's wrong, and trying to do something about it, rather than thinking it's OK, it's God's will, it's unimportant, etc., or not even noticing it at all.

I could go on about how attitudes to war have changed since WW1, about the appearance of the legal ideas of crimes against humanity and of genocide after WW2, about the protections children in Europe enjoy in law, but this post is way too long already.

TheABC · 17/07/2021 21:52

Thank you @Aparallaxia for that post. I found it educational and thought-provoking.

nauticant · 17/07/2021 22:33

Say what you like about Mary Harrington, and on balance I'm not a fan, but she does trigger decent debate. It's a delight to be thinking about posts like Aparallaxia's rather than about whether male people are women.

NonnyMouse1337 · 18/07/2021 08:15

Great post Aparallaxia.

Secondbellini · 18/07/2021 23:54

I really enjoy listening to her talk and she thinks for herself, unlike a lot of the current debate, but some of it just seems like she is poses intellectual problems that don’t really exist…

  1. Feminism is tied to progress. Not really. It is just at looking at any kind of society and asking how can women have human rights here, just as we do with disabled people, children, older people etc. We are progressing towards those rights or moving away from them. They are not something we will one day stop thinking about when we finally get somewhere, anymore than we will get to some utopia where we don’t have to think about freedom of speech anymore.
  1. We have put a taboo on evolutionary psychology and so don’t understand how men and women are different. Not true. What about anthropology, human ecology, geography? Plenty of research into material reality and men and women and why they do what they do. We don’t need to bring evolutionary psychology in.

So some of it is her reinventing the wheel.

But, she has really interesting things to say about the impact postmodernism had on her, on the internet, on the different ages of women. She is an amazing thinker on what is happening to people due to digital technology. I plan to read everything she writes.

Secondbellini · 18/07/2021 23:56

Sorry, should have said…

‘We are not progressing towards them or moving away from them.

FionaMacCool · 19/07/2021 08:21

Fabulous post @Aparallaxia.
I, for one, would be happy if you did go on.

"the moral test of government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; those who are in the shadows of life; the sick, the needy and the handicapped.”

That ^ is my personal lodestone. For "government", replace with individual/school/ business/ family.

SmokedDuck · 20/07/2021 00:57

I don't really think Harrington is arguing against the idea that there can be some ways of like that are better than others, or more just than others - although that's always difficult to argue from a purely materialist perspective because it involves values. But in any case my sense is Harrington believes in such ideas.

I think what she is saying is that there is not some kind of inevitable movement of history toward that kind of justice, in some kind of Hegelian or Marxist sense, which may western people have a strong sense of being real, often without really articulating it - especially younger people.

As to whether we are better off morally - that's very difficult to say, since almost every age considers their values to be more or less correct, and they are always the culmination of a historical process. It always appears, whatever age you live in, that history has led people to the correct moral viewpoint.

But the question of trade-offs is important. I think we see it more as we age - changes in law or social practice often have consequences that go beyond what we thought, in part because they change people's way of thinking. That can create it's own problems. You can't always solve things like this, you may have to decide which problem you want to deal with.

WarriorN · 20/07/2021 06:32

@nauticant

In a similar vein I was stopped in my tracks when I came across criticism of the Whig Interpretation of History. I'd imagine that's right up MH's street.

Ooh now i want to listen.

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