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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The reactionary Feminist Mary Harrington brilliant interview on Triggernometry

36 replies

Childrenofthestones · 15/07/2021 15:06

I cant see this posted anywhere else.
A great interview with a brilliant mind, covering amongst other things the trans issue, the effects of porn and what the future may hold for us all.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 20/07/2021 08:03

SmokedDuck, just what I was going to say, except more eloquently and with references! Smile

It is possible for humanity/societies to improve things and it has and does happen. The trouble is we often end up with an underlying idea that this betterment is natural, irreversible and inevitable. I think this subtle idea that we are on course for a utopian ideal can actually be deceptive and dangerous- this is where the idea of the wrong side of history comes from; in reality things are messy, go forward and back wards - in fact maybe the idea of forward and back is problematic- up and down? We respond to context and circumstance.

Are we confusing the arrow of time with the idea of an upwardness direction of progress? Am I making any sense at all?!

Will coffee and come back.

ArabellaScott · 20/07/2021 08:09

I remember speaking to a zoologist who disabused me of the idea that evolution was an upwards curve. It's either a random mutation that is more or less successful or possibly a response to environment, but it's not travelling towards anything, which I think is a subtle almost unconscious picture that many people have, at least I did.

cocoapopfan · 20/07/2021 10:11

Technological change, especially contraception, has been so important for women, that it’s hard not to see any other period of time than now as a much worse option. I mean it doesn’t matter how privileged you were if you were likely to end up doomed to a life of constant childbirth, and all the ramifications of that, including likely early death.

In general, though, technology changes but I’d agree with Mary Harrington there are almost always losers as well as winners. (I think the philosopher John Gray said in an interview that contraception and dentistry were the only unambiguously good technological developments, I think he has a point.)

It’s hard to claim our moral understanding improves. Look at how Darwinism, which maybe liberated some from the clutch of religion, was then distorted into social Darwinism which was used to justify Nazi eugenics. I think societies lurch around a lot and much depends on the underlying conditions. Belief in progress can itself be quite a dangerous thing, I mean look at so much of the smug left and their conviction they are on the “right side of history”.

@appalaxia Yes, there were terrible aspects of Ancient Greek society. But then they knew that too. Slaves were often taken as captives of war, which meant anyone could end up enslaved, and their literature is full of the terror and tragedy of what this meant, from Homer to Euripides. The historian Thucydides wrote about how the Athenian army, ie many of their male citizens, were seized in battle and put to work in the stone quarries of Sicily, where most of them died horribly. Of course Aristotle famously wrote a defence of slavery, but the fact he wrote it at all shows that he felt an element of doubt, or his society did, about slavery and how it can be made to fit with ethical precepts. (It’s a bad defence, even Aristotle couldn’t square the circle.) And the Greeks were very aware of how fragile everything was, for individuals and societies, maybe an insight which is dangerous to forget.

HBGKC · 27/08/2021 08:54

I also enjoyed this interview, and went away to read various of her written pieces on UnHerd etc.

@cocoapopfan you said 'I think the philosopher John Gray said in an interview that contraception and dentistry were the only unambiguously good technological developments, I think he has a point.'

Harrington made the point towards the end that hormonal contraception is actually an ecological disaster.

Dentistry's use of antibiotics will contribute to the incredibly dangerous prospect of antibiotic resistance. There are always trade-offs.

JustSpeculation · 27/08/2021 09:13

I find Mary Harrington interesting and thoughtful. I enjoy reading her and listening to her.

I agree with @Aparallaxia. Good points made there. I think a lot of the confusion in the "are we better than we used to be?" debate is a failure to identify "we". I hate "we". The word never refers to anything distinguishable in this kind of discussion (incidentally, the thing which first put me off Owen Jones was his relentless "we"ing).

But I don't believe there is any "society as a whole" which can improve, or can bear any kind of meaningful moral responsibility. Institutions can improve. There's evidence. Public discourse can improve. There's evidence. Outcomes for identifiable groups and classes can improve. Lots of evidence.

And there is absolutely no reason to assume that once improved things will stay improved, let alone keep getting better.

NonnyMouse1337 · 27/08/2021 10:37

[quote HBGKC]This was good:

reactionaryfeminist.substack.com/p/on-mothers-and-political-violence[/quote]
I hadn't read that essay before. It's a good one! Thanks.

Aparallaxia · 27/08/2021 22:32

Quite true cocoa Aristotle did construct a defence of slavery; his problem was that the "wrong sort of people" were being made slaves. His argument presents a hierarchy of rationality, with (roughly speaking) adult males at the top, then women and children, then slaves. The problem was to allocate the "right" people to the slavery class—those whose powers of reasoning were so restricted they required someone else to set their life-goals for them and ensure they met them as far as possible. Reason here is not just means-ends reasoning, which people lower down the hierarchy do have, but also enables the sort of rational reflection on theories and experience, conceptual analysis, and abstract thinking that allows a person to discern what is good or bad overall. This distinction is already implicit in the argumentation in Plato's Republic concerning the tripartite structure of the soul and the parallel tripartion of the ideal society. Aristotle is thinking in political terms only, however, and regards slaves as "living instruments" for use by their superiors.

As you say, general enslavement followed defeat in war, and the horrors of it were well-known.

There's a fragment of a Greek poet, Hipponax (probably), that focusses vividly on slavery, as part of a curse, when the poet imagines the man who betrayed him being shipwrecked and enslaved (Thracians, who lived in northern Greece, were considered uncivilized). Here is my translation:

'…battered by the waves;
Thracians with those top-knots of theirs
up in Salmudessos
will take him, naked, to endure
evil upon evil
eating the crust of slavery—
shivering, chilled from the brine,
seaweed covering him, his teeth
chattering, powerless, lying like
a dog on his face there
right where the surf breaks…
All this I’d like to see:
the one who wronged me, the one who
ground oaths under his heel—
he who was once my friend.'

Enslavement continued into the Hellenistic period, with Alexander's expansion of Greek control and civilization. During this time a genre of anecdotes became especially popular: a philosopher is enslaved, and then meets the conquering leader. For example, one philosopher was asked whether he was all right and whether he had lost anything. He replied, 'I have all my goods with me', meaning that he did not value possessions, or even being free, as good, but only virtue, knowledge, or philosophy, or some combination of these.

It's a variation on the genre of anecdotes about philosophers meeting kings or other leaders. An early example of this genre (entirely apocryphal, of course!) was between Diogenes the Cynic and Alexander. Alexander asked Diogenes whether he could do anything for him (this alleged meeting would have taken place in the market square, where Diogenes always hung out). Diogenes replied, 'Yes, please move, you're blocking the sun'.

The point is that philosophers did not start arguing that slavery is wrong, despite its evils; they thought about how a philosopher, or a wise man, ought to behave if enslaved. A lot of moral philosophy was done in the Hellenistic period by discussing what a wise man ought to do or not do, and this is one more example of that trend.

Seneca says that the Roman Senate had debated ordering slaves to wear distinctive clothing; there was a lot of pearl-clutching going on about how slaves had begun wearing better clothing than free men, being carried in litters, etc. (slaves could legally accumulate wealth). It was realized in time that this would only alert slaves to how many of them there were! I am not sure if this report is substantiated by other evidence.

LobsterNapkin · 27/08/2021 23:07

I am skeptical of the idea that we have overcome slavery, even if you only consider the west. We live in a globalized economy, we simply have moved the slave class out of sight and outside the sphere of our political responsibility.

Most of us are not moving to the wilds of Alaska to get outside of that, most don't give up fast fashion, very few consider boycotting all the big tech companies and give up their cell coverage or internet access.

And truthfully, most of us can't. There is very little we can do to change the wider economic landscape we operate in, and it almost seems as if a complex economic system which includes some real wealth may always require a layer of people who are there more or less to serve the rest. Even with machines to take over much traditional servant labour in individual households, we still haven't dispensed with that and neither has any other western country. Perhaps Aristotle was more honest than we are willing to be.

NonnyMouse1337 · 28/08/2021 07:04

Perhaps Aristotle was more honest than we are willing to be.

Insightful post, LobsterNapkin.

DaisiesandButtercups · 28/08/2021 07:11

Exactly LosbsterNapkin.

We also still have slavery and human trafficking in the UK even if it isn’t legally sanctioned.

The decadence of the wealthy contrasted to those in abject poverty is as bad now as it has been at any time in human history.

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