As we know, 'cis' is a load of BS

[Leafstamp]

I've just seen this on Twitter, and thought it was too good not to share...

twitter.com/HaydenHewitt/status/1412425371744706560

For anyone who doesn't want to click:

If CIS means "on the same side as" and TRANS means "on the opposite side as" does "Trans Woman" mean "on the opposite side as woman". I wonder what the opposite of woman is?

and a couple of replies:

CIS man would be a transwoman.

...This is what happens when you appropriate scientific terms used in genetics, chemistry and geography and use them to enable you to enter female spaces.

• I don’t believe in it, I do respect others right to believe.

Quite. Believe what you want. Don't demand to know if I'm 'saved' and yell heretic and try to forcibly convert me, or demand that I participate in your personal beliefs, and we'll get along fine. If you force me to state my beliefs to you, don't then moan that I've said things you find upsetting to hear.

it's why "trans woman" is correct, and not "transwoman." because trans woman is actually shorthand for transgender woman, like how you could shorten "expectant mother" to "expectant mum."

No. Woman - noun. Transwoman - noun. No need for 'cisgender'.

Transwomen are not a subset of women.

removing the status of womanhood from the stereotypes put upon them by society, or simple biological qualifiers? after all, some of the worst sexism we've seen has been the reduction of women to just their biological factors, either their ability to produce children and be a mother, or their objectification and commodification.

This has got to be the most nonsensical take I see often, that somehow men transitioning improves feminism. It's a bit desperate.

The opposite is true, feminist groups have been horribly divided by the imposition of rules that compel women to include gender reassigning men.

I had to give up one feminist group as a result of the utter incongruence of being used by someone in their "living as a woman" endeavours in the group.

It's impossible to reconcile feminism with this belief that "living as a woman" is something men can do.

I have never once seen or read any useful contribution made by gender reassigning men to feminism. If any one has actual examples and not just personal PR or vague waffle like the above quote please do share.

I have never read any explanation of the following apparent contradiction- can anyone enlighten me?

• The group of people who use the term ciswoman tell us that anyone can identify as any gender and this should not be questioned.
• They also tell us that people should each decide the language that should be used to describe their identity and that it is deeply harmful to refer to someone using language that they have not chosen.
• They encourage people to publicise some of the language that they would like to be used to describe themselves, but stating pronouns etc
• Yet the same group of people are adamant that people who were born with female biology and do not identify as men must accept the label 'cis'. In this context, it is 'just a word' and the people who do not choose to be referred to by that word are in the wrong for publicly stating that they do not accept the label.

It's a deeply label obsessed way of life.

some of the worst sexism we've seen has been the reduction of women to just their biological factors

bleeders, menstruators, cervix havers, 'vulva drivers' for fucks sake, uterus havers, birthing persons,

Yes, it's exceptionally sexist and offensive isn't it?

It's all about frantically trying to separate female from women. Oddly enough, not to benefit anyone female. It's almost as if there's this binary sex class thing where one always oppresses the other to get what it wants isn't it?

Redapplewreath shurely shomemishtake?!

[quote ool0n]@CharlieParley, never mind I looked it up, and the OED puts the first use down to a cisgender biologist (And none of that implies she's gender conforming) called Dana Leland Defosse -
www.historians.org/publications-and-directories/perspectives-on-history/may-2017/tracing-terminology-researching-early-uses-of-cisgender[/quote]
Of course it does. But there are more languages in the world than just English.

And I didn't say anything about the person who coined the term being gender-conforming. I am referring to the early German doctors who informed much of the literature on transsexualism and in particular Volkmar Sigusch, who coined the term "zissexuell" and "zisgender" publishing papers using these words in 1991, 1992 and 1995. Sigusch is renowned for his work on transsexualism, having in particular attempted very early on to depathologise it and change how transsexuals are viewed and treated by the medical profession.

That doesn't however negate the fact that these early researchers as well as our modern sexologists very much focused on the transsexual's desire to conform to opposite sex stereotypes and their rejection of the stereotypes imposed on their own sex.

I mean there's about a hundred year's worth of literature on medical transsexualism and the intense focus on (if not obsession with) sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes as demonstrated by the transsexuals they treated, supported and studied of course, is written all over that.

And yes, if you read these medical papers, it's not seen as controversial to frame gender-conformity as healthy, because the focus of almost all of these researchers is on males. Who are not in a double bind when it comes to these stereotypes. Unlike women.

And yours is probably the most bizarre of all these bizarre claims - that the doctrine of gender identity has nothing to do with sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes. Even though by the definition of its proponents, gender refers to the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes societies impose on their members depending on the basis of their sex. Even though gender identity teaching materials for school children and the related training materials for adults feature stereotypes front and centre.

Do you think women are going to pretend the training they were forced to sit through on gender identity didn't happen? That the recordings of these training sessions in all kinds of places don't exist? That those presentations at conferences and public talks made by well known proponents of the doctrine never took place?

', or how "lesbian" started off as a slur against women before being reclaimed by homosexual women.'

Lesbian started off as a slur?

You what?

Are you serious?

I remember dyke being used as an insult. And I know that's been reclaimed and I'm not sure it ever stopped being used tbh by lesbians as a kind of fuck you.

Anyway.

Can you expand more on the word, descriptor for homosexual women started off as a slur?

I'm genuinely interested why you think that, believe that, asserted it in a thread which may well have lesbian posters, bi posters, even het posters who have lesbian friends.

Or just you know. Have a basic idea about stuff. And can Google.

People on here love asking for sources etc.

Do you have something to back up your statement that the term lesbian started as a slur?

Or... Why do you think that? You must have heard of Lesbos. Sapphos. Why... Why did you make that statement?

'The word lesbian is derived from the name of the Greek island of Lesbos, home to the 6th-century BCE poet Sappho.[3] From various ancient writings, historians gathered that a group of young women were left in Sappho's charge for their instruction or cultural edification.[7] Little of Sappho's poetry survives, but her remaining poetry reflects the topics she wrote about: women's daily lives, their relationships, and rituals. She focused on the beauty of women and proclaimed her love for girls.[8] Before the mid-19th century,[9] the word lesbian referred to any derivative or aspect of Lesbos, including a type of wine.[b]

In Algernon Charles Swinburne's 1866 poem Sapphics, the term lesbian appears twice but capitalized both times after twice mentioning the island of Lesbos, and so could be construed to mean 'from the island of Lesbos'.[11] In 1875, George Saintsbury, in writing about Baudelaire's poetry, refers to his "Lesbian studies" in which he includes his poem about "the passion of Delphine" which is a poem simply about love between two women which does not mention the island of Lesbos, though the other poem alluded to, entitled "Lesbos", does.[12] Use of the word lesbianism to describe erotic relationships between women had been documented in 1870'

Above was to ConcernedNineteen

Just looking again at that post

'Okay so, as a queer biochemist with a penchant for etymology (study of words/their origins), '

And you state that the descriptor lesbian- a homosexual wo (in this case I mean a female. Person with a vagina. For clarity).

Was a term created as a slur. And then reclaimed. (How can you reclaim something if it wasn't yours to start with?).

You're interested in etymology.

How on earth can you forget/ ignore the - I would say pretty famous even in the non LGBT general public- fact it's after a Greek island? From yonks ago when some happy homosexual women lived there. And one wrote poetry about her love of women?

Etymology. You say it started as aslur.

You are wrong on a basic point about a well known word that even some random blokes at the bus stop would have an idea about. Because lesbos/ lesvos etc is still there and a holiday place and also on the news recently.

'ranging from the relatively "vanilla" sections such as homosexual, bisexual or transgender people, to non-binary people or individuals on the asexual spectrum - others find it personally offensive when used either as a personal descriptor - e.g. "hey, you're queer, right'

Vanilla is AFAIK a term used about sexual intercourse. Mainly to class people who have the sort of sex that het couples have always had as boring. And to give a fantastic additional coercion to het men when trying to get a partner to do xyz.

It's vanilla. Our sex life is vanilla. Is new language for. Why not try it? You're not adventurous. X does it! You're so... Uptight. Old fashioned. Unadventurous...

In short i think describing groups of people as vanilla is. Pretty crappy.

Especially when you include homosexual people. Whose sexuality is kind of ok in big cities in some countries. But others you can be beaten arrested imprisoned sentenced to death. Subject to corrective rape. Murdered. Disowned by family.
FYI (you must know this?) in many parts of the world a trans person who presents as the opposite sex will often/ generally assumed to be homosexual and subject to ^ all that stuff.

That to you is 'vanilla'?

If being raped imprisoned and murdered because of your sexuality is vanilla. Then fuck knows what isn't.

Oh! You wrote it down.

Non binary.... ?
Loads of people are non binary.
Gender is in your head. You don't have to look a certain way. Non binary people get through life all over the world by sticking to sex role. And so they won't be arrested murdered etc etc. No one can tell by how you look or who you marry (assuming your het not a vanilla lesbian etc) so you can fly under the radar.

Asexual spectrum.
In many countries girls have no choice in who has sex with them. Trafficking, CSA, marriage. It doesn't matter if they're het lesbian asexual etc. They're being raped. I don't see that a young het teen is in a better situation than a young asexual teen. Females I mean.

In that situation i imagine they would give anything not to have sex. Forever. Or for s fucking long time.

Which makes them... Not vanilla.
Exciting? Interesting? Exotic? Unusual? Rare? Don't know the word for 'not vanilla'!!

@ConcernedNineteen

Sorry to @ you but your post has so much that seems. Cavalier? Not thought out?

Lesbian a slur to start with?
Homosexuality 'vanilla'?

Where are you getting this stuff? Why are you posting it?

Have my points made you rethink at all? About googling/ thinking of a wider picture?

I'm really interested.

There are some excellent “murdered by words” posts going on here. I love mumsnet feminism and the women here. Mess with them and you gonna get schooled in reality.

some of the worst sexism we've seen has been the reduction of women to just their biological factors

bleeders, menstruators, cervix havers, 'vulva drivers' for fucks sake, uterus havers, birthing persons,

Yes, it's exceptionally sexist and offensive isn't it?

Exactly. I really struggle to understand the massive disconnect of this. The 'logic' behind trans activism is just plain batshit.

The idea that there’s a coherent ‘cis’ identity is rationally/ logically/ historically untenable.

manatwork68.medium.com/save-draft-1d26e5dbeba6

I really struggle to understand the massive disconnect of this. The 'logic' behind trans activism is just plain batshit.

I could discuss the psychology of declaring absolutely contradictory things both true at the same time, (its discussed a lot on the relationships board, it's common in all kinds of relational situations and not specific to this one context) but I'd get deleted.

Queer is a slur and always fucking has been.

Lesbian is a female homosexual's term and always was, and we will fight to keep it from your porn soaked pals.

You can keep the Qslur if you want. I'm not under your umbrella and I'd rather stand in the pissing rain than under an umbrella with people who hide behind genuine civil rights campaigns to remove the rights of women and LGB people, and put children at risk in all possible ways.