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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

As we know, 'cis' is a load of BS

71 replies

Leafstamp · 06/07/2021 16:23

I've just seen this on Twitter, and thought it was too good not to share...

twitter.com/HaydenHewitt/status/1412425371744706560

For anyone who doesn't want to click:

If CIS means "on the same side as" and TRANS means "on the opposite side as" does "Trans Woman" mean "on the opposite side as woman". I wonder what the opposite of woman is?

and a couple of replies:

CIS man would be a transwoman.

...This is what happens when you appropriate scientific terms used in genetics, chemistry and geography and use them to enable you to enter female spaces.

OP posts:
ool0n · 08/07/2021 14:22

@CharlieParley, never mind I looked it up, and the OED puts the first use down to a cisgender biologist (And none of that implies she's gender conforming) called Dana Leland Defosse -
www.historians.org/publications-and-directories/perspectives-on-history/may-2017/tracing-terminology-researching-early-uses-of-cisgender

Leafstamp · 08/07/2021 14:23

@ool0n

Please see Erish’s post on Phrenology.

No one here is saying we don’t understand what cis means, especially when used in chemistry etc. What we’re saying is that it is nonsense when affixed to the word ‘gender’.

Just like we understand what phrenonolgy is and know it to be nonsense.

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334bu · 08/07/2021 14:39

Absolute nonsense when affixed to gender, especially when it is used to describe all members of the female sex to distinguish them from members of the male sex who identify as women. Firstly it is used , even when there is no knowledge of the gender identity of the person being described. Secondly it is used to imply that all females are somehow a subset of their own sex and that,as a result, males who identify as women share some kind of "intersectionality "with them. As the OP said BS.

OldTurtleNewShell · 08/07/2021 15:18

Cis/cisgender has nothing to do with gender/sex stereotypes.
This is the definition of cisgender according to the OED:
denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender corresponds with their birth sex.
It's all about gender. It's literally in the definition and the name.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/07/2021 15:41

37,000 hits for cisgender in Google Scholar

Are there? How fascinating.

OldTurtleNewShell · 08/07/2021 16:02

37,000 hits for cisgender in Google Scholar

I just got 123,000 results for 'homeopathy' and 181,000 for astrology, so I guess there's more evidence for those existing than for 'cisgender'. That's how this argument works, right?

theThreeofWeevils · 08/07/2021 16:06

we understand what phrenonolgy is and know it to be nonsense

Retrophrenology reminds me a bit of something, though Smile
wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Retrophrenology

Leafstamp · 08/07/2021 16:37

@OldTurtleNewShell

37,000 hits for cisgender in Google Scholar

I just got 123,000 results for 'homeopathy' and 181,000 for astrology, so I guess there's more evidence for those existing than for 'cisgender'. That's how this argument works, right?

I think you’re getting the hang of it. What word shall we type into Google scholar next?
OP posts:
334bu · 08/07/2021 16:49

How about unicorn?

Leafstamp · 08/07/2021 17:47

Ooh good one.

143,000 results for unicorn.

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ConcernedNineteen · 08/07/2021 21:38

Okay so, as a queer biochemist with a penchant for etymology (study of words/their origins), I feel almost uniquely suited to explain the "problem" with arguments relating to the cis/trans prefixes, but the first thing i want to say;
when discussing cis men and trans men, you're not actually using the words as "cis" or "trans." again, they're prefixes. the terms are "cisgender" and "transgender," as in, you have remained the gender you were at birth or you have another gender to the one you were assigned at birth. it's like how "homo" and "hetero" are, admittedly occassionally, used as shorthand for homosexual and heterosexual. but yeah, it's why "trans woman" is correct, and not "transwoman." because trans woman is actually shorthand for transgender woman, like how you could shorten "expectant mother" to "expectant mum."
now, for the term, "queer." while it originated as a slur against the lgbtq+ community, some chose to reclaim it, and it has now taken on status as a sort of umbrella term, similar to gay can be used as an umbrella term for lgbtq+ people. of course, there are individuals within the community, whether previously targetted by the term or not, who still view queer as a slur, so while some find it acceptable to describe themselves as queer - ranging from the relatively "vanilla" sections such as homosexual, bisexual or transgender people, to non-binary people or individuals on the asexual spectrum - others find it personally offensive when used either as a personal descriptor - e.g. "hey, you're queer, right?" at a SGA. ultimately, it's similar to how black people have made steps to reclaim the n-word, previously used to oppress them, or how "lesbian" started off as a slur against women before being reclaimed by homosexual women.
all of this is to reach the ultimate conclusion that language and the terms we use are incredibly fluid, and constantly changing. back in the middle ages, "man" was used to describe people as a whole, of both sexes; not out of sexism, but because the gendered terms were different, werman and wiffman - "man" meaning person with the gender signifiers being "wer-" and "wif-" (it's actually where werewolf comes from! were- being man, -wolf being wolf!). to use other examples, in more recent decades the progression of gay from simply meaning happy to being synonymous with homosexuality, or even simply the jump from transsexual to transgender to better describe the status. or, to look at some more down-to-earth examples of terms arising that completely escaped the remits of their "inventors," the Red Pill analogy commonly used online by the anti-woke, anti-PC crowd famously comes from the Matrix, a movie made by the transgender Wachowski sisters, and which famously, by the reasoning of transgender critics and academics, seems to describe transgender experiences as they would be described by transgender people who hadn't realised that they were trans yet, as the Wachowski's - at that point, two brothers - were at the time.
All of this is to say, language and terms change all the time. to use an example from transgender culture, there's currently a move away from the terms Female-to-Male (FtM) and Male-to-Female (MtF) in favour of Assigned Male/Female At Birth (AMAB/AFAB), because they argue it's more fitting; they aren't going from female to male, they were always a man and they were simply raised to believe they were a woman because of a quirk of their biology (their idea). the term cisgender, as is almost acknowledged in this thread, is simply the antonym of transgender, which I feel like is being missed, but it, potentially, highlights the disconnect between trans-inclusionary and trans-exclusionary thinking. a trans-exclusionary person might use the terms "trans woman" and "woman," because they view trans women as separate to and different from "real" women, whereas a trans-inclusionary person, who would include trans women as women, would therefore describe the subset of women who are not trans as "cisgender women."
It's also potentially worth mentioning that trans-exclusionism in feminist spaces has a tendency to not only invite the far-right in but leads to so-called feminists working with groups that want to restrict abortion rights and women's rights generally, but I could never describe it as comprehensively as the Institue of Race Relations

midgemagneto · 08/07/2021 21:42

Transgender woman would imply a woman ( hole person) who isn't accepting the gender associated with the word women

The first word being a descriptor qualifying the second

Which is exactly the opposite of what a transwoman is

Is the rest of the spiel equally spurious ?

ConcernedNineteen · 08/07/2021 21:45

also, I believe what the other user meant wasn't that the term cisgender had nothing to do with gender; rather, it has nothing to do with either sex stereotypes or gender stereotypes.
a cisgender woman can wholly rebel against the stereotypes associated with womanhood, and it would not make her any less of a woman; equally, if a transgender woman were to wholly rebel against the stereotypes associated with womanhood, while she would receive the ire of the media and the public for daring to claim to be a woman while refusing to try and fit their poorly-constructed stereotypes, the same logic would hold that how much that trans woman adheres to or rebels from the stereotypes of womanhood has no bearing on "how much" of a woman she is.
which, ultimately, is another positive step in the right direction, no? removing the status of womanhood from the stereotypes put upon them by society, or simple biological qualifiers? after all, some of the worst sexism we've seen has been the reduction of women to just their biological factors, either their ability to produce children and be a mother, or their objectification and commodification.

ConcernedNineteen · 08/07/2021 21:48

@midgemagneto

Transgender woman would imply a woman ( hole person) who isn't accepting the gender associated with the word women

The first word being a descriptor qualifying the second

Which is exactly the opposite of what a transwoman is

Is the rest of the spiel equally spurious ?

Okay but you're approaching the idea from the wrong perspective, you see; you're assuming that the transgender person is a woman because that's what they were born as, but that's the OPPOSITE to the line of thinking. if you were a "woman" who realised they weren't the gender they were assigned at birth (transgender), that would make you a man, right? so transgender men are people who reject the gender "woman."
midgemagneto · 08/07/2021 21:50

What is woman if not adult human female ?

Give me enough information that I can determine if I am one or not

BrandineDelRoy · 08/07/2021 22:09

@ConcernedNineteen

also, I believe what the other user meant wasn't that the term cisgender had nothing to do with gender; rather, it has nothing to do with either sex stereotypes or gender stereotypes. a cisgender woman can wholly rebel against the stereotypes associated with womanhood, and it would not make her any less of a woman; equally, if a transgender woman were to wholly rebel against the stereotypes associated with womanhood, while she would receive the ire of the media and the public for daring to claim to be a woman while refusing to try and fit their poorly-constructed stereotypes, the same logic would hold that how much that trans woman adheres to or rebels from the stereotypes of womanhood has no bearing on "how much" of a woman she is. which, ultimately, is another positive step in the right direction, no? removing the status of womanhood from the stereotypes put upon them by society, or simple biological qualifiers? after all, some of the worst sexism we've seen has been the reduction of women to just their biological factors, either their ability to produce children and be a mother, or their objectification and commodification.
I'm having a little trouble following your post, but if biological qualifiers don't matter, why do we ever divide humans into women or men? Or bovines into cows or bulls? Etc.?
ConcernedNineteen · 08/07/2021 23:00

well, it's simple; we separate bulls and cows because it makes the easier to control and use for our own profits.
similarly, the current gender roles and segregation into men and women is entirely for the profit of the capitalist class, the ruling class.
modern gender roles came as a result of industrialisation; one partner goes to the factory to earn money for the man who owns it, the other stays at home and does all the work as an unpaid housekeeper.

IsItShining · 08/07/2021 23:06

Lovely, dear.

Nobody ever changes sex.

And 'segregation into men and women is entirely for the profit of the capitalist class' is actually bollocks. Which make quite a good way to tell the difference.

Are you really 19? In which case, I have some sympathy as I knew everything at that age too.

Kollamoolitumarellipawkyrollo · 08/07/2021 23:11

@midgemagneto

What is woman if not adult human female ?

Give me enough information that I can determine if I am one or not

This never gets answered properly when asked which is frustrating.
Kollamoolitumarellipawkyrollo · 08/07/2021 23:13

@ConcernedNineteen

well, it's simple; we separate bulls and cows because it makes the easier to control and use for our own profits. similarly, the current gender roles and segregation into men and women is entirely for the profit of the capitalist class, the ruling class. modern gender roles came as a result of industrialisation; one partner goes to the factory to earn money for the man who owns it, the other stays at home and does all the work as an unpaid housekeeper.
Yes which is why I refute gender and wish to only use sex.
Iggi999 · 08/07/2021 23:15

I stopped reading that really long post when I read about continuing to identify with the gender at birth - I wasn't given any gender at birth, just a sex. Anyone else? Confused

TalkingOutYerArse · 08/07/2021 23:28

@Iggi999

I stopped reading that really long post when I read about continuing to identify with the gender at birth - I wasn't given any gender at birth, just a sex. Anyone else? Confused
Yep. All bullshit. Not going to say what's been said a million times over already with these kind of threads. We are wasting our breath. They know our position, we know theirs. And again, it's all BS. The efforts they go to and all the word salad. It must get very confusing and exhausting.
Blibbyblobby · 08/07/2021 23:43

Whatever label you put on them, people with female bodies have been subject to oppression that people with male bodies weren't, and that oppression while no longer legally supported is still baked into our culture and therefore continues to place the female bodied at a disadvantage.

So whether you believe sex is "really" meaningful or not, until that cultural imbalance in power is addressed, the demand that trans rights can only be met by the removal of single-sex classifications is damaging to female people because it masks our lived reality by ignoring the things we experience as a group.

334bu · 08/07/2021 23:53

Reading Concerned19' s post reminds me of all those French films I sat through, trying to convince myself that what was being discussed was important and meaningful and not just the pretentious claptrap that it really was.

Leafstamp · 09/07/2021 07:01

Yes and more yeses to all posts after 2300h. Especially:

I wasn't given any gender at birth, just a sex.

My sex was determined at conception and observed and recorded at birth.

I did not get assigned a gender at birth. And apart from possibly a few years in middle childhood, I have never had a gender nor gender identity.

Having a gender/gender identity is much like a religion - some people believe in it and I respect that. But I don’t.

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