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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is this a woman lead movement?

110 replies

dyslek · 01/07/2021 09:58

I have been wondering this for a while.

Is the current 'Trans' movement, and therefore all its, lets say, issues, a woman lead movement?

From the initial inovators to the current youthful enforcers, have and do women play a critical role in our own subjugation?

OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 06/07/2021 09:48

Well I know her and she is.

It's an error to dismiss the loads of people who support this as bastards and not try and understand what the hell they are thinking.

FloralBunting · 06/07/2021 10:08

I'm sure there are many people who support this, and believe they are doing so out of kindness. Most people don't think beyond a very superficial level.

However, I have yet to see someone who, when the nuts and bolts of the issue are discussed, like prisons, sports, hospital care, homophobia, open child abuse based on sexist stereotypes etc. doesn't begin to shift away from the overt #BeKind perspective. Sometimes it takes time, true.

The only reason I've seen it happen in the other direction is when the pressure of standing against a system that persistently denigrates and disbelieves women becomes overwhelming. It's incredibly psychologically draining to be constantly confronted with how little women matter. I have to take breaks a lot, because there have been times when I've realized that I'm statistically likely to be standing in a bus queue with a rapist and I've wanted to sob.

But there are women, and those are the women we are talking about here, who are presented with the unvarnished truth, and no matter how logically or calmly it is presented, reject it and actively choose the position of oppressor. Identifying as nice, kind feminists, too. Some of them might be on the journey out if it, of course, in which case the only answer is to keep presenting the truth, keep defending women, keep.upholding safeguarding.

But one of the important tenets of feminism is that women are whole people, not paragons of virtue. We are just as capable as men are of greatness, but by the same token, we're just as capable of stupidity, wilful ignorance and sometimes, great evil. It manifests differently to men, partly due to biology (we can't rape, for example) and sometimes due to conditioning (the standard behaviour of a woman TRA is different to a male one, less likely to be wielding weapons, etc.). But the simple fact is that if a woman rejects the evidence that women and children are harmed by Genderism, and persists in claiming that she is being kind by doing so, she is lying.

If we continue to insist that people like Sally Hines, Ash Sarkar, Susie Green etc. are doing what they are doing because they are nice, kind feminists, we are just as guilty as Genderists of taking words and completely changing their meanings.

Feminists are women who seek the liberation of women, and the protection of their rights and freedoms. If a woman doesn't do that, she's not a feminist, and her niceness and kindness is focused on men.

OldCrone · 06/07/2021 10:43

@NiceGerbil

Well I know her and she is.

It's an error to dismiss the loads of people who support this as bastards and not try and understand what the hell they are thinking.

If she's nice and kind and genuinely feminist, she should be willing to explain to you why she believes what she does. Ask her. Surely a nice, kind feminist would be willing to explain some of her views on feminism to another feminist.

If she reacts angrily to the suggestion that she should be able and willing to explain her beliefs, is she really a 'nice, kind feminist'? Or if you daren't ask because you think you will be denounced as a bigot, is she really a 'nice, kind feminist'?

We shouldn't have to spend so much time trying to understand what people like this are thinking because we are too afraid to ask because of our fear of what their reaction might be, or because they won't answer our questions.

We can only go so far with trying to understand them, and then it's up to them to explain to us to help us to understand.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/07/2021 16:13

If she's nice and kind and genuinely feminist, she should be willing to explain to you why she believes what she does. Ask her. Surely a nice, kind feminist would be willing to explain some of her views on feminism to another feminist.

If she reacts angrily to the suggestion that she should be able and willing to explain her beliefs, is she really a 'nice, kind feminist'? Or if you daren't ask because you think you will be denounced as a bigot, is she really a 'nice, kind feminist'?

We shouldn't have to spend so much time trying to understand what people like this are thinking because we are too afraid to ask because of our fear of what their reaction might be, or because they won't answer our questions.

We can only go so far with trying to understand them, and then it's up to them to explain to us to help us to understand.

I agree. Have you asked her why she thinks what she does, NiceGerbil?

NiceGerbil · 06/07/2021 16:25

I haven't asked no as it's work!

If outside then yes I would.

She's v involved in LGBT+ activism so I suspect that's what it's about.

NonnyMouse1337 · 11/07/2021 10:51

[quote NecessaryScene]There was a great discussion the other day on Triggernometry with Heather Heying and Jordan Peterson, and one of the viewer questions was relevant to this thread:

Women seem more vulnerable to the Woke religion. I think because it hijacks the "mama bear" circuits. Is there any psychological intervention or an evolutionary perspective that could be used to at least curtail this?

That led to a lot of interesting stuff from both Heying (evolutionary biologist) and Peterson (psychologist) about why women get caught up in this, and act as enforcers against other women.

Arguably if "toxic masculinity" is a thing, then to some extent this can be "toxic femininity". Both sexes have certain sex-typical behaviour which can be pathological, and social shunning is a female one.

[/quote] Thanks for sharing this NecessaryScene. I watched the entire thing as well as the clip, and it was an interesting conversation touching on all kinds of issues.

There is some horrible behaviour within so many women's groups towards those that don't toe the gender identity creed, that I don't think it's a phenomenon that can be ignored. Destroying reputation, bullying, shunning etc. It's not just the male threats of violence that women who are gender heretics have to endure, but the sheer viciousness of some women who use these toxic tactics to eject 'wrongdoers' from various social and professional circles, while demonstrating to anyone else what can happen if they also dare to speak up. It's like some magnified version of highschool politics.
I have no idea how one would go about addressing it.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 11/07/2021 11:07

There was a great discussion the other day on Triggernometry with Heather Heying and Jordan Peterson, and one of the viewer questions was relevant to this thread:

Thank you for highlighting this, NecessaryScene and for your reflections on it and the whole chat, NonnyMouse - some of it is in line with my early response and I need to think about the rest.

Crepescular · 11/07/2021 11:31

[quote Miskirsky]@FloralBunting

I apologise, obviously no offence intended. As far as I am concerned we are both women. It's just relatively common parlance and within the context of trans allies, was included for clarity and ease of reading. Smile[/quote]
But you're not a woman, are you? You're a biological man pretending to be a woman and pretending that you you know what it is to be a woman.

I'm heartily sick of all this 'be nice' bullshit - sorry if I've offended you, Miskirsky, but let's not pretend you're a woman or female. Forget the linguistic bullshit and let's be honest.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 11/07/2021 12:12

It’s led by men, as they invented it. But it’s supported by women who want to beeee niiiice without giving the issue any real thought, or who inwardly despise women but wouldn’t dare say so, or who want to keep in with the boys. Or young women who are frightened to disagree with their aggressive and seemingly powerful peer groups.

OldCrone · 11/07/2021 13:32

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

It’s led by men, as they invented it. But it’s supported by women who want to beeee niiiice without giving the issue any real thought, or who inwardly despise women but wouldn’t dare say so, or who want to keep in with the boys. Or young women who are frightened to disagree with their aggressive and seemingly powerful peer groups.
It's also supported by a number of female people who identify as trans or non binary, and who have played quite a large part in this destruction of women's rights and harm to children.

Christie Elan-Kane, campaigning for the right to have X instead of male or female on passports.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4293818-Non-Binary-passport-appeal-on-Mon

Dr Igi Moon, who was responsible for the memorandum of understanding against conversion therapy, which appears to forbid anything other than affirmation for children who believe they are transgender.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4293723-Professionals-Assured-Under-18s-protection-from-irreversible-decisions

And of course, people like Stephen Whittle, Freddy McConnell and James Morton.

Many female people who now identify as non-binary or as transmen previously described themselves as lesbians before deciding that they weren't actually women. Now they appear to hate women so much that they want their rights to be destroyed and for them to be less safe.

The men behind this probably can't believe their luck that they have a whole bunch of female people to put up as figureheads to support their claims that this isn't a movement which is for the benefit of and led by men.

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