Is this a woman lead movement?

[dyslek]

I have been wondering this for a while.

Is the current 'Trans' movement, and therefore all its, lets say, issues, a woman lead movement?

From the initial inovators to the current youthful enforcers, have and do women play a critical role in our own subjugation?

Yes it probably is a power grab, I agree.

And also similar behaviour coming from the recent graduates, who are really keen to be seen as right-on, same as the the older boomers in very senior posts and in power, I think they wan5 to be seen as down with the kids, and have one eye on the exit just waiting for their executive retirement.

Meanwhile, I clock the virtue signallers and those who have pronouns in their signatures and see that as a 🚩 that it does not say good th8ngs about their critical thinking skills or integrity. If I’m doing this, I’m pretty sure I’m not the only person to do so.

'I do think that Christianity was friendly to women in the light of the contemporary environment. '

Globally?

I very much strongly disagree. I put some info upthread about the impact of Christianity in the world right now.

The Roman empire isn't contemporary though surely!

NOW religion is fucking up millions of lives all over the world. Especially for women. With Christianity being the largest global religion.

The idea it is/ was good for women I find baffling and it feels like s strange tangent as well.

I didn’t mean to go off on a tangent. And English is my second language so I meant contemporary as at the time of Christ. Sorry if that came our wrong.

I am just interested in how religions, which seem to have had some bright sparks for women at the time of introduction (Christianity was better for women and slaves, I believe the prophet Mohammed encouraged private property for women and that Khadija was a business woman).

Then they seem to be captured by patriarchy and used as a tool to suppress women. I am wondering if it is less the religion in itself and more how males are using it to gain status.

Ah sorry.

It's a really interesting topic and I'm enjoying your posts.

I do think it's off topic for this thread though. Happy to carry on, on new thread in feminism chat if you want to start one though!

@NiceGerbil

I enjoy your posts as well. I have been thinking about this and I believe that my topic may be related after all.

Hear me out. Religions often start with something good, something that is extraordinary and in many cases (Islam and Christianity) positive for women given the time. Then it all goes tits up and become a vehicle of oppression. Many women participate in this, just like in the trans movement.

I think that people who are lost, feel that they have failed in society or generally not are very happy where they are in the social hierarchy use both religion and trans rights (and other movements) as an alternative structure where they can obtain a higher status. This goes for both men and women. Women generally score higher on agreeableness (as a personality trait) and are therefore possibly more prone to groupthink as they are more keen for the others in the movement to like them.

How many of the truly successful/powerful people in society are fanatics (religious, TRA or other)? Sure, they will pay lip service to it, say the right thing etc, but are they driving this movements? Not really!

You have some exceptions where they are related to a TRA or they are trans themselves. But part of driving the movement? Nope!

How many times do we have truly intelligent posters here arguing the TRA case? In the way that you get the feeling that they are a successful academic or business person? I have yet to come across this. It is all an absence of arguments and “lol” and “don’t be transphobic”.

So coming back to the topic of the thread, is it woman led? You have some women, some “prominent” academics but never the most clever ones. Given how they write, how would they stack up against the sharpest brains we know elsewhere? How many successful business women do we see as part of this? How many truly successful writers or actors? Some pay lip service but not more than that. The driving forces have found a place where they perceive themselves in an alternative social hierarchy where they have a higher status than they ever could have achieved elsewhere. And they keep driving it because they worry about upsetting others in their new friendship group.

What do you think?

Yeah, to be fair dear old Sally is a total numpty. She's as mad as a bag of cats.

I have been thinking about whats going on in America and the religion thing. It might be off topic.
How toxic a religion is to women depends on time and place to a large extent even within the same religion.
Given what is going on here with the gov and stonewall and what has happened in america recently you would think institutions in society would be slowing down and thinking carefully about hooking up with the idology, given the very recent controvosy thats what you would think might be going on.
On the bus to work this morning I passed litterally a high street of what can only be described as advertising for gender idology (and its getting more extreme and explicit that it really does intend to transform all aspects of socitey so that we will not be able to recognise sex (well publically anyway) It is propper full on Orwellien social engineering that will leave the bodies of most women and children as little more than reasources for the rich to exploit)
Lots of major high street chains had added new stuff from this weekend. Pride month is over so why is now stuff appearing now?
What Im saying is that this movement is a conflation of different interests and if we are to fight it we too have to ally with groups that we would not normally have much to do with.
In the UK most ofthe push back has come from the left but in the US (because they are so partisan politically) most of the pushback has come from more conservative groups, espically christians.
TRAs go on and on about the American Christian Far right but its important to know that even in America most churches are not far right or even particuarly right (in American standards anyway).

Batman's bat I think another thread would be better and I'd find it really interesting!

I don't agree with the fundamental point in your opening bit though so not going to reply here as both our posts run to length and it's a derail for sure!

If you start another thread with a couple of your posts from here on and say it's about religion historically good/ bad for women in sure there will be interest! I'll post for sure :)

@NiceGerbil

If you skip my first two paragraphs, would you agree then? There is almost nothing about religion in those, only about alternative social structures.

Another thread! Let's do it :)

And I just might start another thread . It would be interesting to discuss!

Yay! I think we disagree but will be interesting and prob will get others.

If you put aside s certain issue then fem chat?

Post on here to let me know if you do!

Started in chat! .

The reason the female enforcers are quite so vicious in trying to stamp the dissent out is both because they know they will lose their position, and they also know exactly what awaits those women who do dissent, because they themselves have enacted it on other women.

Brilliantly put.

How far will they go though?

Is an interesting point.

Around the world women do all sorts of awful things to women and girls.

If women can be e.g. in favour of murdering their daughter due to 'honour'. Then I wouldn't expect any changes of heart soon.

I've long ago been disabused of the notion that rationality and argument will inevitably persuade. I still hold to it as a personal guiding principle, but while individuals can be highly reasonable, others seem to think reason is a moral failing.
That's why queer theory has such a grip, I guess. We're truly in the dying embers of enlightenment rationalism, veering headlong into a new age of superstition and mob rule.
Enough people can still follow a logical argument and have a basic concept of protecting the vulnerable. But a growing cohort of individualistic, capitalist consumers who have grown up believing that their immediate wants supercede almost anything are kicking the shit out of the foundations of society.

And the really sad thing is that they still have enough natural reason to read through this and understand, but only the ruined shell of an ethical framework that will declare simply that the foundations need to be destroyed.

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity.

What rough beast is slouching toward Bethlehem, eh?

But that's not ... Across the board?

The woman I know is lovely, a feminist, etc.

She buys all this.

I think it's a mistake to see it like that.

People who are nice and kind and genuinely feminist are supporting this.

Why?

Across the board? Well, thankfully no, not yet, anyway. But it's quite hard the escape the sense of prevailing trend. You only have to look at the level of institutional capture. The amount of people claiming to be socialists because they like free healthcare without the slightest clue what class analysis is, why it matters or how to apply the concept.
People collect labels like pin badges, and sure, someone says they're a feminist, but dig into what they mean and you'll get 17 different answers.
The fact that language is malleable and changes organically is manipulated to control, social media is designed to create dependencies. Honestly, it's the biggest self destruct button waiting to happen that I could imagine.
Dystopias taken as guide books rather than warnings.

Yeesh, I know I shound cynical. And I don't think all is lost, far from it, or I wouldn't still be bothering. But i do believe that unless you truly grasp what you're up against - the mindsets that drive these authoritarian madnesses through - you face a harder job holding them back.
I mean, fuck, I survived conservative patriarchal Christianity by the skin of my teeth, and I only fell into into because of growing up in a household of much more secular abuse and neglect. There are millions more stories like that, and understanding the motivations that leads women to punch hard at other women, like someone drowning and dragging people down with them, is vital.

People who are nice and kind and genuinely feminist are supporting this.

Because they are flying monkeys.

narcissistabusesupport.com/red-flags/use-flying-monkeys/

People who are nice and kind and genuinely feminist are supporting this.

People who are so far gone that they support the idea of males in all female spaces without any right for women and girls to object, because not to do so would challenge their cognitive dissonance, are not "nice and kind and genuinely feminist".