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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Blimey Miss Nevada

77 replies

HeavenHotel · 30/06/2021 13:58

Beauty pageants are not my thing, as with most feminist, and would be a whole different and interesting discussion. But really .....?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/abc7.com/amp/wins-miss-nevada-kataluna-enriquez-transgender/10844187/

OP posts:
sanluca · 30/06/2021 16:40

I thought I didn't care but then read this:

I care about how far away we are going from the window of what is acceptable in the female form and expectations around cellulite, body composition etc.

And thought f*ck I do care. I care that a male body enhanced by surgery is seen as the best way a female body should look. That is one crap development. Women are meant to have boobs and hips, not hipbones and boobs that keep upright when lying down. Not that that is wrong, but that should never be something to aspire to if you have a female figure.

Iwasonlytryingtohelp · 30/06/2021 17:44

I guess it is the ultimate in validation for that individual and their plastic surgeon. Woman as performance.

DrinkFeckArseGirls · 30/06/2021 17:45

I thought beauty pageants like this didn’t allow plastic surgery…

PurpleHoodie · 30/06/2021 22:59

In a similar sports field, in a galaxy not too far away, Victoria's Secret came under pressure to field men in their runway shows.

Victoria's Secret response was - "Potato"

Plans to "evolve the marketing of Victoria's Secret" come in the face of a "decline in performance," L Brands said in its earnings report. The company says it has "substantially pulled back on capital investment in that business while we focus on ensuring that our merchandise resonates with customers.

MrsAvocet · 30/06/2021 23:21

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

I don't care about the competition.

I care about any associated scholarships and sponsorships that aren't going to women.

I care about the centring of the winner as a female role model and ambassador for girls and young women.

I care about how far away we are going from the window of what is acceptable in the female form and expectations around cellulite, body composition etc.

Thank you for this. I also thought I didn't care as the whole beauty pageant concept is an anathema to me, but this, and other similar posts on this thread made me change my mind. It does matter.
Coyoacan · 01/07/2021 03:55

Sorry, I'm old school and hate beauty pageants in themselves and even worse now that it is all about plastic surgery.

I live in Mexico and the poor cannot get ahead through beauty contests as you have to be 1:70 m tall at least and 90% of Mexican women are considerably shorter than that.

Aspiringmatriarch · 01/07/2021 04:05

There are some very beautiful trans women. Can't remember the name but there's a Brazilian (?) model too who is stunning. If it's purely a beauty contest then why not I guess.

SD1978 · 01/07/2021 04:34

As a woman who supports sex based rights- I'm not sure how you can pick and choose surely which aspects you support, based on personal preference? 'They' can have that, but not this.......surely it's more an all or nothing?

ChattyLion · 01/07/2021 05:28

No way should male entrants be allowed into female pageants. That’s very elitist to say this instance doesn’t matter men can have this one because pageants are this or that. This isn’t about what anyone thinks of pageants and their effects on competitors or women in general. It’s about female places, spaces, opportunities, prizes, earnings and female careers being appropriated by men dressed as women.
Absolutely not ok.

Imagine the practicalities as well of the communal changing and dressing rooms, safeguarding and lack of regard for female safety, privacy, dignity and comfort and preference. Clearly some of the same sorts of arguments as preserving women-only competition in sport apply here- about training, career and earning potential, male natural physical advantage in this specific competition disadvantaging female competitors, female objection and safeguarding objections being silenced in favour of male validation.

The article shows ‘transgender pageants’ already exist. Why does this competitor need to compete in the ‘cisgender’ pageant then? (Not that it would matter if they didn’t exist, but they happen to) Why did the womens pageants’ organisers think it’s ok to let male people enter the women’s competitions? What happens next year when loads more male people enter these competitions?

Beauty Pageantry is just another example of why it’s not a level playing field for transmen compared to transwomen, nor for women compared to transwomen- because of deep structural gendered problems already affecting women in society. Gender non conforming women don’t benefit from gendered inequality and are disadvantaged by those structural problems, the vast majority of outwardly/cosmetically gender conforming women are similarly disadvantaged by them. And now even the tiny tiny fraction of the outwardly gender conforming women who do benefit (in a professional/material way) via success in beauty pageantry, are being ousted by pure male privilege from their own professional arena.

It would rightly be hugely frowned on if a woman attempted to enter a ‘transgender’ pageant because she would be appropriating the place of a transgender competitor. Same arguments apply against a transwoman entering a women’s competition however much it might be deeply important to a transwoman competitor to ‘feel like’ or ‘be seen as’ ‘a woman’, or as prize-winningly ‘beautiful’ or both of those things. It’s not fair on women.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 01/07/2021 08:41

Once again a woman misses out on prizes and opportunities. This time also, the standard of beauty is set at a body shape that women would harm themselves trying to reach.

CharlieParley · 01/07/2021 08:52

I've read all the comments explaining why a beauty pageant intended for women should not include males. Even though my view of beauty contests is the same, I do accept the arguments made by pp as to why this isn't ok.

JuneJustRains · 01/07/2021 09:17

Hmm.

I can see people’s point that women are missing out.

For me, I think the difference here is that beauty contests are all about meeting a femininity standard and not a female standard in the first place. Not great at expressing that idea but I think there is a difference.

Lonel · 01/07/2021 09:23

Agree with all the posts here. I see also that wimen who enter mustn't be mothers - so not really fair on that count either.

Lonel · 01/07/2021 09:24

Women! Spelling mistake rather than linguistic choice.

Lonel · 01/07/2021 09:26

For me, I think the difference here is that beauty contests are all about meeting a femininity standard and not a female standard in the first place.
True but I think this just cements the idea that what makes a woman is feminity.

JuneJustRains · 01/07/2021 12:16

It's not what makes a woman. It's what makes a Miss Nevada entrant, like entering a makeup contest is about makeup, or entering X-factor is about being over-impressed by one's own singing voice.

Etorih · 01/07/2021 12:42

It's not what makes a woman. It's what makes a Miss Nevada entrant, like entering a makeup contest is about makeup, or entering X-factor is about being over-impressed by one's own singing voice.

Which was always female. Until gender ideology sought to change the meaning of words to allow males into female spaces.

FanFckingTastic · 01/07/2021 12:51

Miss World and other beauty contests are horribly fake - presenting a caricature of what a women should look like. Whilst I'm all for inclusion, this just reiterates to me how ridiculous these kind of competitions are. How can someone that's not a biological woman be held up as the 'most beautiful' of our sex?

dyslek · 01/07/2021 17:41

eh, I hope they win.

As others have said; men can have beauty pagents, we'll keep single sex spaces for when their really needed.

dyslek · 01/07/2021 17:44

@sanluca

I thought I didn't care but then read this:

I care about how far away we are going from the window of what is acceptable in the female form and expectations around cellulite, body composition etc.

And thought f*ck I do care. I care that a male body enhanced by surgery is seen as the best way a female body should look. That is one crap development. Women are meant to have boobs and hips, not hipbones and boobs that keep upright when lying down. Not that that is wrong, but that should never be something to aspire to if you have a female figure.

I think having men as the contestants really shows that it is not natural for a woman to look like that.
ZaraCarmichaelshighheels · 01/07/2021 17:55

Really disappointing to read on here that people don’t care as it’s a beauty contest, a woman has still lost a title to a trans women, just because it doesn’t matter to you it matters to the women who have lost out, if it had been a sports title the same people saying they don’t care would have been all over it, you can’t pick and choose, either trans women taking a woman’s place is wrong or not, just because the subject matter doesn’t fit your standards does not mean it is ok, awful attitude.

IHaveBrilloHair · 01/07/2021 17:57

I absolutely agree.

dyslek · 01/07/2021 18:01

The thing is I dont really agree with beauty contests for women. Society needs to judge womens looks less not more.
So if men want to go for it than that is up to them, but I think they are bad for women.

Weebleweeble · 01/07/2021 18:05

But surgery is so common in some parts of the world that anyone could win.

ZaraCarmichaelshighheels · 01/07/2021 18:05

So what if you don’t agree with them? The bottom line is they are still a contest for women to be won by a woman. You can still hold the view beauty contests are wrong and outdated (which I agree with) but you should still care that a woman has lost out to a trans women.

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