Well the Staniland question has been answered

[noraclavicle]

And it’s every bit as morally bankrupt (to use Helen’s own words) as we’ve come to expect:

The Staniland Question

Have a squiz of this
tinyletter.com/Glosswitch/letters/the-ok-karen-33-you-should-feel-bad

CardinalLolzy

“When you recommend shaming a young woman for any potential discomfort – when you insinuate that it is somehow voyeuristic, rude, obsessive not to want to be in close proximity to the naked male bodies of strangers – you are doing what abusive men have always done to women and girls: shaming them into feeling their distress is their fault”

That sums it up doesn’t it? The cognitive dissonance required to arrive at Penny’s answer is breathtaking. Christ, her feminism is bad and she should feel bad.

Fair amount of discussion about that tweet in this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4281706-pushback-at-wi-spa-in-los-angeles?pg=3&&reverse=1

It is incredibly close to victim blaming, nah not close it is victim blaming.

Why do people not argue for cubicles? Most 15 year olds have no interest to undress in front of anyone, I certainly appreciate cubicles, and I am sure most trans women feel the same.

As has been said a bazillion times, women were very much up for fighting for third spaces, for fully contained changing areas but we were told very aggressively that we were hideous transphobes for not wanting to share our female spaces with male born ppl. There’s no affirmation in getting changed in a room of ones own

And so here we are

Classic DARVO - deny, accuse, reverse victim and offender.

@CatherinaJTV

Why do people not argue for cubicles? Most 15 year olds have no interest to undress in front of anyone, I certainly appreciate cubicles, and I am sure most trans women feel the same.

Why isnt saying no to men in womens spaces enough? Why do we need to suggest compromises?

I saw this. On twitter earlier - fucking grim, WTF.....

Always "blame" the women, centuries of this dogma

@CatherinaJTV

Why do people not argue for cubicles? Most 15 year olds have no interest to undress in front of anyone, I certainly appreciate cubicles, and I am sure most trans women feel the same.

You are 18 times moee likely to be assaulted in unisex cubical changing rooms than in women's changing rooms. Why is such increased risk acceptable?

Forget cubicles, the man in the Wi Spa had the option to use the nude men-only section or the clothed mixed-sex area, but he chose to get naked in the women-only section and climb into the Jacuzzi next to a little girl. If there was a cubicle he wouldn't be in it.

She’s no feminist 😠

Bloody Laurie Penny! She and Ash Sarkar are truly the Scylla and Charybdis of the liberal left.

Cubicles are not the solution.
Properly enforced single-sex spaces along with some gender-neutral fully enclosed spaces are needed.

Penny’s defence on Twitter seems to be about intent of why the penis is out. It’s ok apparently, because it’s just someone getting changed. In what world does she think that’s ok? My teenage daughters don’t want to, and shouldn’t have to see a dick, anywhere, at any time. It doesn’t matter if it’s been whipped out intentionally, fallen out by accident, just part of getting changed, or sent by dick pic. They have the right to not see this. There should be places, other than the privacy of our home, where they can have full expectations of not seeing a dick. Waking down the street is one place. A male changing room is not one. A female changing room absolutely should be. They don’t care about the person’s intentions, they just do not want to see it.

FFS.

"the Scylla and Charybdis of the liberal left..."
I am weeping 😂

@CatherinaJTV

Why do people not argue for cubicles? Most 15 year olds have no interest to undress in front of anyone, I certainly appreciate cubicles, and I am sure most trans women feel the same.

This is in the context of a Korean spa in Los Angeles which is (supposed to be) segregated and customers use the facilities nude.

So a male (tackle out) plopping himself down in a jacuzzi right next to an (also nude) nine year old girl came as rather a shock to the women in there.

Cubicles aren't always a practical option. At my school for example, you would have 45 of each sex changing at the same time. 45 cubicles would quadruple the size of the PE changing room. How many science practicals do you scrap to pay for this? Ditto for rugby clubs etc.

Cubicles aren't exactly foolproof. Teenage boys take liberties. If you tell them that they can identify as female and use a cubicle in the female changing rooms and you can bet they will be standing on the benches, trying to get a look.

Why do people not argue for cubicles? Most 15 year olds have no interest to undress in front of anyone, I certainly appreciate cubicles, and I am sure most trans women feel the same.

Because it is completely unrealistic. To cope with the flow of people, there will always be communal changing rooms in schools, in gyms, pools or wherever needed. To rail against them is futile because which organisations have the space to do this in high peak times?

Of course there should be a couple of cubicles in the female changing room if there is space. For female’s who need a cubicle.

There is actually more sense and potential capacity to have a small third space available though for the small number of people who need them.

However, exactly who benefits from teaching teenagers to lower their boundaries ? Who benefits from insisting that safeguarding standards be lowered to accommodate males in female single sex spaces?

@EishetChayil

Bloody Laurie Penny! She and Ash Sarkar are truly the Scylla and Charybdis of the liberal left.

This is why I love this place, you just don’t get this quality of burn elsewhere

I don’t think you’ve understood the story here, catherina, unless you’re proposing that each spa user has their own spa in a cubicle. Which sounds great, but is obviously impractical.

If we are talking about changing rooms, then the solution that delivers the most benefit for the most people, with the most safety for women, that is feasible and practical in most gyms is sex segregated group changing with a small amount of mixed gender cubicles for those who need them.

The solution is not to gaslight women and shame young girls for reacting to males stepping on their boundaries.

Even if you argued intent (which is rubbish) what do you really think the intent of this man was?

I wasn't a fan of the Staniland question at first. I thought it was too obvious and that no-one would answer it. I hadn't realised that a) being obvious was the point or b) the lengths some people will go to in order to appease.

Even if you argued intent (which is rubbish) what do you really think the intent of this man was?

Yes - what on earth could be the possible intent of a grown male swinging his male tackle around a changing room with naked women and girls?

Voyeurism and indecent exposure are illegal for a reason. They are obscene in themselves and stepping stones to other, including more serious, sexual crime.

Any real feminist worth their salt know this and many genuine TW would not step on the boundaries of others - especially little girls.

This is enabling and celebrating sexual predators.

@Floisme

I wasn't a fan of the Staniland question at first. I thought it was too obvious and that no-one would answer it. I hadn't realised that a) being obvious was the point or b) the lengths some people will go to in order to appease.

I hear you. But the victim-blaming answer that’s come (and the intellectual contortions afterwards, from ‘It’s a changing room, what do you think is going to happen there?’and ‘Well if I was 15, I wouldn’t be in a spa to start with’ from Penny all the way to the unhinged ‘OMG, you want to stare at genitals!!’ on Helen’s Twitter feed) is pretty stark, isn’t it? It sure as hell ain’t feminism.