Tokyo Olympics Canadian Women’s football team fielding a Transman

[TrainedByCats]

There doesn’t seem to be a lot of consistency in the IOC rules

Laurel Hubbard Transwoman allowed to compete as a female
Quinn Transman allowed to compete as a female
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54233946

@EndoplasmicReticulum

I thought this quote from the piece was interesting, if you compare it with the Laurel Hubbard situation.

"The 25-year-old remains eligible to compete in women's sport despite identifying as transgender because gender identity differs from a person's sex - their physical biology."

Well yes, quite.

No reason why Quinn shouldn't continue to play on the woman's team as long as they are not taking testosterone.

Yes interesting quote

I honestly thought they were called Quim - very ironic....

"We live in a world that is so binary and I have been receiving messages ever since I was a young child about how I should act, how I should portray myself and how I should be and anything that deviated from the was essentially wrong"

"I wanted to dress the way I wanted to, present the way I wanted to and that wasn't always seen as positive, so that was really hard to digest."

I still find this whole concept really difficult to understand. Why do you have to label yourself as 'non binary' to do all this? No surprise that they met their first transgender friends at college.

I also think that the transgender umbrella term is so big now (it only used to include transexuals) I have found several 'genders' that I could fit into without having to do anything to change myself. Am I missing something?

As long as no hormones have been taken then they’re still a biological woman

Hormones don't change a persons sex.

As long as hormones aren't giving them an unfair advantage over other women, then there's really no problem here.

@Thelnebriati

As long as no hormones have been taken then they’re still a biological woman

Hormones don't change a persons sex.

Indeed.

More accurate to say that since people can't change sex, then so long as hormones haven't been taken, as performance-enhancing drugs are banned, then there is no reason why a female shouldn't compete in the protected female category.

I still find this whole concept really difficult to understand. Why do you have to label yourself as 'non binary' to do all this?

Me too. It seems to be a generational thing. Older people just say stereotypes are damaging.

@Thelnebriati

As long as no hormones have been taken then they’re still a biological woman

Hormones don't change a persons sex.

Yes I know that, worded it badly.

Strange, I reported my post to ask for the title to be updated and it’s been moved to feminism chat instead of Sex and Gender.

I don’t understand the MN rules either

I didn't like the way the article juxtaposed the concept that transgender people have been banned from olympic competition until 2015 with this person who is just a female who doesn't want to be one and would never have been bloody banned from competition...

Well it's all a shitshow if illogic and inconsistency.

Non binary person can play on women's team as biology matters and sex is female and that's what counts.

Transwoman can compete against women because being a woman is about identity and testosterone.

It boils down to men and non men doesn't it.

"It's really difficult when you don't see people like yourself in the media or even around you or in your profession. I was operating in the space of being a professional footballer and I wasn't seeing people like me," Quinn tells BBC Sport

Has Quinn never looked around at the other 21 players on the field?

Reading the article, it seems Quinn's reasons for being non-binary are more to do with avoiding stereotypes than believing they are not female sex. So fits fine with playing for the woman's team.

Indeed they are, as the quotes I posted demonstrated. It breaks my heart that Quinn feels the need to identify out of being female in order to be comfortable with not performing feminity. But I understand why. I hope Quinn is happy.

Quinn is, as far I as I can tell, not taking hormones and therefore at no advantage in that way. But the point is, if Quinn can identify as non-binary and play on the female team, seeing as Quinn does not identify as female, what is stopping a male who identifies as non-binary doing the same?

@NiceGerbil Spot on

@KimikosNightmare

"It's really difficult when you don't see people like yourself in the media or even around you or in your profession. I was operating in the space of being a professional footballer and I wasn't seeing people like me," Quinn tells BBC Sport

Has Quinn never looked around at the other 21 players on the field?

Well quite.

None of it makes sense. The words change all the time.

We're told it's not about 'presentation' but Quinn says looking around there weren't any people like Quinn.

So how does that make sense?

If man woman= identity then non binary people who are not men or women.. still can play on men's or women's teams?

Personally I can't see anything about how Quinn looks that is different to loads of other female people.

The fact that none of it makes any logical sense really gets to me. I'm a logical sort of person. If things simply don't make sense it really bothers me.

@WomaninBoots

I didn't like the way the article juxtaposed the concept that transgender people have been banned from olympic competition until 2015 with this person who is just a female who doesn't want to be one and would never have been bloody banned from competition...

Presumably we all imagined it when Bruce Jenner (as Caitlyn Jenner was then known) won that gold medal.

Seeing as trans people were "banned" from Olympic competition, eh?

Yes true.

Is trans about internal gender ID?
If a person hasn't told people they have s trans identity. If they haven't changed their appearance. This seems to say they are not trans.

But they are. Gender identity is different to gender presentation.

Many trans people say they always felt that way.

Jenner was trans when they competed surely?

What was not allowed was a very large number of substances that could enhance performance, including testosterone for both sexes.

What was not allowed was competing in the sex category that you weren't.

There was nothing stopping female people with a stereotypically male hairstyle and preference in clothes from competing.

There was nothing to stop male people with a stereotypically female appearance style competing, well in the rules anyway. In practice the old toxic masculinity is a real problem. Men need to sort that out tbh.

Haha! Purgatory... Good point! Saying, as the article does, that "trans people were banned or barred" is pretty disingenuous. People who were cheating by being men in the women's category were banned. But women who take testosterone are still banned.

I hope Quin feels happier now they get to say they are not a woman or what have you but their "not being a women" in the way they think they are doesn't effect their ability to be involved in women's sport or anything really. Just noone is going to "make" them wear a dress or something, and everyone gets to use shitty grammar when trying to talk about them. Guess what? Adult women can decide what to wear and how to have their hair and everything all by themselves already. It doesn't require special exemption.

A female footballer not adhering to feminine stereotypes is surely the biggest non-story of the decade?

@Truthlikeness

A female footballer not adhering to feminine stereotypes is surely the biggest non-story of the decade?

Well, you might have a point there. I have no problem with Quinn on this team. But it does serve to underline the illogicality of some of the decisions being made in sport. Quinn - same sex, different/no gender = fine to compete in a woman's team. LH - different sex, female gender = also fine to compete against women. Women's sport really does seem like a free for all for anyone. Is this happening in men's sports? Hmm.

'The 25-year-old remains eligible to compete in women's sport despite identifying as transgender because gender identity differs from a person's sex - their physical biology.' This utterly contradicts every reason we are told 'proves' Hubbard is eligible to compete in the women's weightlifting.

There's nothing wrong with a women's team fielding a woman who tells people she's a blerk.

A person can have the oddest ideas, but still be good at footy. I mean- look at David Icke!

“Most people, unless they're non-binary, have a gender identity of male or female”

Yes, yes - of course! All us silly women totally identify with all the stereotypes about women 🙄

Why do so many people in N America in particular seem to think that you need to label yourself? Did the 1970s and 80s pass them by? To see women willingly choosing to be defined by stereotypes is sad - and totally regressive.

The ‘logic’ of all this regarding sport is non-existent. Things should be divided by sex - simple.

'The 25-year-old remains eligible to compete in women's sport despite identifying as transgender because gender identity differs from a person's sex - their physical biology.' This utterly contradicts every reason we are told 'proves' Hubbard is eligible to compete in the women's weightlifting.

Exactly. It’s the hypocrisy that’s pissing me off.

I still don’t understand how using the ‘wrong’ pronouns or a ‘dead name’ is actual violence (TM), yet playing on a team made up of your biological sex, despite believing you aren’t part of that category, is fine? I have no problem with Quinn playing in terms of Quinn’s physicality, I’m just struggling to see how mentally Quinn can square it

I can't actually make out what Quinn is telling us. The article says they have come out as transgender- is Quinn now a man or non- binary?

Quinn looks like a younger, slightly more feminine Meg Rapinoe. If doesn't "see people like yourself in the media or even around you or in your profession" is taken literally Quinn should have gone to Specsavers and should never get a linesperson role.