Commemorating the spacious Nest of Vipers

[Forgotthebins]

As MN FWR goes on the next phase of its journey, I wanted to commemorate some of the many issues that the Board has made me think about, and wondered what lists other women had?

1. The horror of the "rough sex defence" for murdering women.
2. The failure of the Holbeck "managed zone", I really hope lessons are learnt.
3. #Letclothesbeclothes
4. The 8 rules of misogyny - so helpful for spotting it in daily life!
5. A great thread about climate and feminism, and how we need to not let the heavy lifting of being greener become just "women's work".
6. A great thread about what white feminism means which I wish I had had the ability to contribute to but really found thought provoking.
7. The decriminalisation of rape
8. Seeing how women who voted Brexit feel demeaned by Remainers (I wish they could see how demeaned I feel for my poor EU mum by Brexit but hey, maybe another time).
9. A different point of view on surrogacy, which I now find the most challenging topic on the board.

I landed here for the first time since my children were babies because of someone on Twitter linking a thread. I was firmly TWAW and #BeKind but had been irritated by Munroe Bergdorf saying women shouldn't talk about reproductive systems as it was exclusionary (at a Women's March...) and bothered that my friend who kept posting about trans kids always linked to something based on a child fulfilling very limited gender stereotypes. I have gone back and forth and slowly developed my own position on the conflict of rights, and how to best support kids who are distressed by gender expectations. But I have got the benefit of exposure through the MN FWR board to these other issues too.

As others have said on other threads, I work in an environment where most people call themselves "intersectional feminists" so I get good exposure to their views, I am expected to implement their views in fact. This was the one place where I could go to get a different view. I feel very sad that MN seems to consider GC views just about worthy of respect, but not worthy enough to be in the same space as other people. I guess we have to make the best of this space but I hope people here continue to post on a range of topics and that their posts are allowed to stay here so that I can continue to have my thoughts challenged and broadened.

This is a great post and I 100% agree. Like you, I am thinking a lot about surrogacy at the moment and not sure where I'm going to land, have found the board a challenging but important counterpoint to my initial instinct of 'where is the harm'?

Would also add that this board has opened my eyes to the pornification of teenage lives and the very real and scary beliefs/behaviours that await both my DD and DS as they become more exposed to this. As a middle aged mum of small kids I don't think I would have known about the big changes since I was a teen, if I wasn't reading these boards.

Great post. 5 years ago I probably had a much more ‘lib fem’ position if I really thought about it (which I didn’t too deeply I must admit). Just a sort of ‘sexism sucks’ and ‘let people do what makes them happy and support that if it isn’t hurting anyone’ type of approach. This board has been really challenging for me, and I’ve had to interrogate my own position and discover I’d been intellectually lazy about many issues. A lot of the beliefs I had didn’t stand up to logic and reason (and facts) which was unsettling, but so necessary. I’m still figuring out where I stand on issues around prostitution and surrogacy, as others have mentioned. But the difference is I’m now really thinking about it.

Fab post. Agree with you 100%. I say my feminism IS intersectional, just not with males.

I've said this before but it seems appropriate to repeat myself here.

I've learnt far more about feminism from the disagreements on here than the agreements. Issues surrounding surrogacy are an excellent example and I remember in particular a poster who no longer posts here who was really instrumental in that. And it wasn't because everyone agreed - far from it! Many times I would sit nodding my head at posts from both 'sides' of a discussion.

Incidentally, that poster always explained her opinion rather than just telling us we were all wrong because reasons. And that's a big factor in why my thinking changed on those issues.

Transwidows thread really opened my eyes. It was something I had never heard of until MN and now I'm a big supporter of these women. ❤

A brilliant thread and reason to celebrate what this board does. My thinking has also be challenged, I never gave much thought for surrogacy and now I'm very interested in this as well as self ID, education in schools and universities and also free speech in a general sense.

I suppose it's all the thing you thought you could rely on, that the law would protect the vulnerable and underpin a moral compass you believed to be strong in society and that free speech was something we all had and could enjoy. I also though emergency services like the NHS and Police would be based on facts and evidence and truth. It's been useful to have a space to find others who are shocked and scared by this revelation, to find comfort in our joint fear.

I'm another one, like Veeta who came to this board around 5 years ago. What a rollercoaster is has been! My ability to debate has been honed here and I consider myself open minded before joining MN but more so now since you can find someone you disagree with but who you can 'talk' to and engage with, that activity alone is worthwhile and something we should do more of.

It's a far more superior platform than Twitter!

Great post OP and all the others. Just placemarking because I'm at work and having a quick sneaky look at my phone.

As a long-time feminist, I have long been aware of the kinds of issues mentioned above.

The threads that piqued my interest of late have been the ones about physical and environmental space for girls and women. I knew this was an issue - but the clear and detailed way in which the OPs outlined the issue and their focused campaign to address it really caught my interest. This is actually a big issue but not one that is terribly 'front-and-centre'. It was inspiring to see a poster pick up on it and run with it. (Sorry I can't remember who it was and have no time to search).

I came here from a firm ally position. Many years ago I was working in a public building and the issue of transwomen using the ladies toilets came up and I was firmly of the 'they only want to pee' thought process. I remember the eye rolling from the older ladies who worked there but I was very much 'no, I'm right, they are wrong'.

Then when I was breastfeeding in the wee hours, Googling questions about room temperatures, mastitis etc, I came across the FWR board and had all my preconceptions turned on their head. @DickKerrLadies great point about leaning more from the disagreements.

In addition to informing myself about women's rights issues, I have also learned about -
The normalisation of extreme porn, the Make Space for Girls project, the Let Toys be Toys project, the Counting Women project, how to contact my MP/MSP, poetry for and by women, important feminists in history among loads of other smaller things.

All this despite it being a 'one issue' board.

@YetAnotherSpartacus Cross Post! I think the campaign you are talking about is the Make Space For Girls, which I have mentioned above.

I don't have children, so there was loads I didn't know about schools and the current life for teenage girls. I have many friends with daughters, and now have a niece, so feel I have learnt on their behalf.

I'd never really thought about surrogacy except in a vague "that's nice for gay couples isn't it" way, and certainly had no idea about trans widows.

I don't do Twitter, so always appreciate the links to idiocy from brave correspondents from that war zone of pub bores and escaped lunatics.

The rules of misogyny have been absolutely eye opening.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3236421-so-these-ere-rules-of-misogyny

I really liked TheBewilderness too.

I’ve also moved from a fairly liberal “let people live how they wish as long as they’re not hurting anyone” stance to a far more critical position thanks to the many threads and discussions around safe spaces, health provisions, changes to language and laws, JK Rowling, transitions in childhood etc.
I never understood the implication of gender and sex and why those terms are so important to some women.
This board absolutely taught me the power of words and language and the protection and rights they afford us - and others. Not just a woman’s issue of course but I wouldn’t even know about these things otherwise.

As others have said surrogacy has been a big one for me as well as rough sex defence, counting women, rape culture

I was always GC but I couldn’t vocalise it. I didn’t know there was a term for it.

Learned so much from these threads over the years.

Just thinking more about this and one of the great things about the FWR board was that points made had to be backed up with evidence. It could be slightly intimidating to start with if you only had a wooly idea about what you were talking about but there were so many times that I went to make a point, tried to find evidence and found I was completely wrong! Or someone else would say 'have you considered this' and put a whole new slant on what I was thinking about.

That's what worries me a bit about the feminist:chat board. A poster yesterday made a claim on a thread and I asked if they had any evidence that what they were claiming as fact was the case. The answer was a sort of roundabout 'well, I might be wrong, but you might also be wrong, so who cares anyway'.

Barracker's pronouns are rohypnol.
Lang pointing out safeguarding & coercive control
Surragacy
The Transwidows threads.
The rules of mysogyny.

So much basically. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

Also the campaigns and the grass roots funding. for all the brave women who have taken the fight to court, and those who have put it in the public eye - and kept it there.

Oh yes, I forgot that one - the Make Space for Girls campaign is brilliant! I already used some of that stuff in a local playground discussion.

I forgot this one.
I had no idea Lesbians were coming under such awful pressure. It just didn't occur to me that this was possible www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4272756-Only-21-lesbian-bars-remain-in-America
This is just one of lots of threads on the subject

I feel like I'm at a wake.

Great thread. There are some great resources signposted here too.
and:
I've learnt far more about feminism from the disagreements on here than the agreements. Issues surrounding surrogacy are an excellent example and I remember in particular a poster who no longer posts here who was really instrumental in that. And it wasn't because everyone agreed - far from it! Many times I would sit nodding my head at posts from both 'sides' of a discussion.

I agree with this so much! That's why I'm always so desperate for the posters who come here with the opposing point of view to be able to articulately argue in a decent manner - I want to be challenged. I think it's been eye-opening how rarely this occurs on some topics (some, not all). The questions that get asked and never adequately answered say a lot.

It has been utterly illuminating and educating for me and I appreciate it so much. I still feel that MNHQ have let us down badly.

Could it be one of those very drunken wakes Arabella or perhaps it could be a woke

I'll have a double triple-sec and gin, love.
I mean, a secs & gin, dear

Came to the board after a wake up call from my daughter a few years back who had lesbian friends feeling under pressure. Its really been useful following the threads about whats happening with court cases like Alison Bailey and Maya Forstater. And sorting out the sex/gender issue - thanks to all the people who put time into working through this and explaining the detail of where the flaws are. I`d just left the Green Party after a particularly bruising conference and this board felt like lots of friends saying: "you werent wrong". I hope lots of the old vipers are still with us!

Oh, I forgot that about wakes! It's all sad and then someone cracks out the hip flask!

I have a long speech prepared for the occasion [footers about in bustle]

• MN has taught me how to question orthodoxies, how to challenge my own assumptions, how to be a bit braver, more assertive, how to be an activist, write to MPs, alert the media, ask questions, look at bias, think harder, be more compassionate, ask more questions. And much more. I owe FWR an awful lot.

Also agree that disagreement and learning how to debate/discuss is a phenomenal asset of this board.

[finds hipflask in bustle]

Your very good health, ladies, and all those who came before.

Arabella maybe less of a wake, more of a picnic on one of Bunbury’s hikes, after a particularly treacherous bit of uphill pebbly ground, where we can have our snacks, admire the view, and (hic) stroll merrily on again once refreshed. Slainte, in either case.

And yes I think the point from DickKerrabout learning more from disagreement than agreement was the first, hardest, and most important step on this journey for me.