Commemorating the spacious Nest of Vipers

[Forgotthebins]

As MN FWR goes on the next phase of its journey, I wanted to commemorate some of the many issues that the Board has made me think about, and wondered what lists other women had?

1. The horror of the "rough sex defence" for murdering women.
2. The failure of the Holbeck "managed zone", I really hope lessons are learnt.
3. #Letclothesbeclothes
4. The 8 rules of misogyny - so helpful for spotting it in daily life!
5. A great thread about climate and feminism, and how we need to not let the heavy lifting of being greener become just "women's work".
6. A great thread about what white feminism means which I wish I had had the ability to contribute to but really found thought provoking.
7. The decriminalisation of rape
8. Seeing how women who voted Brexit feel demeaned by Remainers (I wish they could see how demeaned I feel for my poor EU mum by Brexit but hey, maybe another time).
9. A different point of view on surrogacy, which I now find the most challenging topic on the board.

I landed here for the first time since my children were babies because of someone on Twitter linking a thread. I was firmly TWAW and #BeKind but had been irritated by Munroe Bergdorf saying women shouldn't talk about reproductive systems as it was exclusionary (at a Women's March...) and bothered that my friend who kept posting about trans kids always linked to something based on a child fulfilling very limited gender stereotypes. I have gone back and forth and slowly developed my own position on the conflict of rights, and how to best support kids who are distressed by gender expectations. But I have got the benefit of exposure through the MN FWR board to these other issues too.

As others have said on other threads, I work in an environment where most people call themselves "intersectional feminists" so I get good exposure to their views, I am expected to implement their views in fact. This was the one place where I could go to get a different view. I feel very sad that MN seems to consider GC views just about worthy of respect, but not worthy enough to be in the same space as other people. I guess we have to make the best of this space but I hope people here continue to post on a range of topics and that their posts are allowed to stay here so that I can continue to have my thoughts challenged and broadened.

This thread perfectly illustrates why some people put so much effort in trying to silence women talking and getting our views deleted and censored.

Like many others I was of the #bekind mindset - I ended up here one night just to see how awful the bigotry was. I read lots of posts about biological fact, etc. when it struck me that this was the supposed transphobia that was literally killing males!

The Rules of Misogyny have expanded beyond 8 (one of them is mine) but their initial location on gc Reddit of course got nuked, and other sites also no longer available or not freely accessible. This one works (at the moment):

https://4w.pub/the-rules-of-misogyny/

And this one

https://trollbusterxtra.wordpress.com/2017/08/09/rules-of-misogyny/

But maybe we need to keep a copy here as well.

1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.
2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
4th rule of misogyny: Women’s opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified.
5th rule of misogyny: WATM! Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
6th rule of misogyny: Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breast feeding babies deserve punishment.
7th rule of misogyny: Women should always be grateful to men for everything.
8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
9th rule of misogyny: Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say.
10th rule of Misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.
11th rule of misogyny: Whatever women suffer from, men suffer from more.
12th rule of misogyny: Women’s ability to recognize male behavior patterns is misandry.
13th rule of misogyny: It is always far worse for a woman to name the abusive behavior than it is for a man to exhibit the abusive behavior.
14th rule of misogyny: Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent.
15th rule of misogyny: Men are better at performing male fantasy femininity than women are because they invented it and it gives them a boner.
16th rule of Misogyny: Men are the default human and women are other.

Fantastic thread, OP, and a great reminder of why this forum has been such a brilliant resource. I am absolutely sure that one of the main reasons, if not the main reason, we have been successful in pushing back the gender madness in this country is the existence of this forum. Thanks to all the brilliant women who post here for your wisdom and thoughtfulness.

You lot have totally changed my feminism. My eyes are wide open now, and I’m gradually gaining the courage and confidence to formulate and state my position on issues I’ve sat in seething, silent anger on for far too long. (My peri menopausal, ‘don’t give a fuck’ 40s are feeling quite exciting! ).

(I’m also having the best conversations of my life with my Mum, who is in her 70s now and was a second wave activist. We’ve bonded more than ever over the issues that come up on these boards and our animated, often angry chats about them. We went down to the Royal Academy together at the weekend so she could tell them in no uncertain terms that they could stick her membership where the sun doesn’t shine over the whole Jess de Wahls debacle. It was a fun day out .

I love this place.

I am so grateful to this board and my friend in real life who signposted me to it. I have learnt so much from the intellectual disagreements and am learning every day. I've really changed my attitude to surrogacy and prostitution since being on these boards and getting factual information to go away and digest. Looking forward to more healthy debate without the boring derails.

Errolthedragon thank you for the additional rules of misogyny! It’s just so useful to have those zingers in your head when something is happening and that inner voice says “I am not comfortable, this feels wrong”, helps put it in that wider context of how misogyny boxes women in.

I don't mind this new space, if anything I think people are likely to click out of curiosity that this topic gets its own forum.

I have always considered myself a feminist- but until I had children I fell in to the trap of believing that most of the heavy lifting needed to achieve equality was done. I accepted without question the 'fact# that women's careers will be impacted by having children and there is nothing that can be done about that (it's just biology) and that most of the very senior positions in business/government were taken by men just because women chose to prioritise family/lacked ambition. Indirect discrimination that most daren't even mention in the workplace (for fear of being 'that' woman) made me challenge this.

I had utterly swallowed the notion that saying transwomen were not women was akin to homophobia or racism. When the subject of transwomen using women's toilets was raised I was SURE that the only people who would want to do this were poor vulnerable people who felt trapped in the wrong body and just wanted to have a wee without being stared at. I utterly bought in to the #bekind idea. I thought anyone who disagreed was ignorant and bigoted.

I had always felt uneasy about prostitution/porn and the impact on women but accepted that this was probably just because I was a bit of a prude and/or projecting my own feelings on other women who are perfectly happy with their roles.

What started with an absent minded read of the FWR board as a way to pass a few minutes became a wake up call. The first very naive comment I posted was shot down immediately by another posted. I felt uncomfortable and attacked, but her challenge included links to studies, facts and statistics whereas my post was just based on 'common knowledge' that I had no back up for.

I am angry and bemused by the ease with which the TWAW mantra has been accepted without challenge by so many organisations without reference to any actual facts. But I can see why some people are so keen to silence the well informed women who post here.

Great post OP. I would also have treatment of lesbians on my list.