Harriet Harman throws women under the bus.

[Maskless]

This morning, Julia Hartley Brewer interviewed Harman about women's rights, and men invading women's sports.

Harman claimed that "deciding if somebody is male or female in sport is very difficult."

She also claimed that men in women's sports are not a threat.

Brewer said: "If you are born with a penis you are male; if you are born with a vagina you are female. It's quite simple, actually."

Harman replied: "It's not that simple, actually."

Why are all these female leftie politicians suddenly hell-bent on making themselves look complete fools AND betraying our sex?

It's the right wing Brewer who stated that she is concerned about the "erasure of women" (her words).

Is someone paying these Labour women? Have they been ordered to say things they know are not true? Are they being threatened or blackmailed?

twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1407247745799397379

Ona thread about a flasher I said I suspected it would turn out that the flasher was a woman, as sexual violence perpetrated by women was increasing.
I was told in no uncertain terms not to be such an idiot, flasher has a penis and is therefore a man. Quite rightly.
How is there such a disjoint between what people who pretend to have bought into this crap dare to say in public, and what 99.9% of us know but daren't say in certain circles as we fear.
This is utter madness and I have really had enough.

I think there is massive controversy about DSDs and the Olympics etc.

I think taking that on as well will muddy the waters.

Bog standard male people are starting to come through. That's a much clearer argument and still new to most people.

Oh and no one else on that fast running thread backed me up. No one stood up for the fact you can't tell whether someone is a man or woman by their genitals.
Because you bloody well can.

Which thread?

[quote NumberTheory]@Truthlikeness

Competing in elite sport is expensive. A simple chromosome test once someone starts showing serious talent is a minor cost and inconvenience, even for less affluent countries.

Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui (the 3 Rio 800m medal winners) all have XY chromosomes. I don't think it was complicated, the IOC just didn't care enough about women's sports to prevent them running will full male levels of testosterone before.

The IOC has been going back and forth for decades and fought in the courts over testosterone limits and other restrictions. It's absurd to say they just didn't care enough. They see it as tricky in part because not all people who grow up thinking they are female despite having xy genes have an advantage over other females in sport.[/quote]
Having read about the process and 'evidence' that went into the IOC decision to allowed trans women to compete against women, you may have to forgive me for being somewhat skeptical of their motives and decision-making abilities!

fairplayforwomen.com/emma_hilton/

this
I've probably hijacked it enough

@NiceGerbil

I think there is massive controversy about DSDs and the Olympics etc.

I think taking that on as well will muddy the waters.

Bog standard male people are starting to come through. That's a much clearer argument and still new to most people.

I agree on the bog standard male people front, NiceGerbil. But when it comes to sport the DSD issue has been an issue for longer than the trans issue. To come in and say "sex in sport is simple" is ignorant and won't get very far because sports bodies have been struggling with the fact that it isn't for a long time.

The reality is that most Labour women are keeping shtum about this.

The Labour guy on the phone to DH this evening told him ‘actually, a lot of women in the party feel the same as you’ to which he replied ‘well why is it we don’t hear their voices?’

Well we all know why. They get the Rosie Duffield treatment from the zealots and the Labour men - particularly the leader - offer zero support if they even dare not to offer up their catechisms, let alone speak out.

Almost all the time it is though, number.

These are standard males.

Getting entangled in the situation with CS and others is a bad idea.

And they certainly used to be very keen on checking the sex of those competing in the women's category, I think they used to do a physical exam.

They managed to miss all the women who were given testosterone (and likely were not told).

All of a sudden they go from checking female women very carefully to saying oh s penis is no problem.

Almost as if they have a bias...

Which thread, stealth?

She's a coward. Her body language said she doesn't believe a word of it. Just another coward.
If Labour women MPs wont stand up because they are so terrified of the backlash from the party then it's not the party for me. I just wish more would show courage.
Very few MPs I respect now because of this issue. Be brave, like so many women (and some men) have been.

@LewishamMum

The reality is that most Labour women are keeping shtum about this. I can't help thinking that that is probably for the best. Yes, it's irritating and stupid and....but if they said ANYTHING they would be deselected, never promoted to a position of influence and it would push the Labour hierarchy to adopt a more extremist anti-women's position.

Most Labour women won't say anything, and in almost all cases it's because they support women. It's maddening as hell, but compared to the alternative, I say leave them be and so they are there to help us when the time comes.

But Harriet is likely to retire anyway so she has nothing to fear.

As for the rest, I have no respect for them. Better to be forced out of your seat with your integrity intact (and enough of a fuss kicked up to be noticed) than to lie through your teeth and pretend that everything is fine while women's rights get sent down the river.

The thing that shows the IOC acted to find a way to include some transwomen rather than looking at fairness is glaringly obvious when you look at their conclusion..

'Athletes would also be required to demonstrate that their total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nanomoles per litre for at least 12 months'

Reference ranges for normal:

Male: 10 – 30 nmol/L
Female: 0.7 – 2.8 nmol/L

Wel they’ve driven a lot of us away. I’ll never vote labour again after how badly they’ve betrayed me and every other woman in the country.

There's no one to vote for. That's the problem.

I mean if you're a left voter generally.

The signalling coming out of the Tories is worrying. I think there's going to be a general undermining of a lot of stuff around protection for minorities.

@NiceGerbil

Which thread, stealth?

Link at 23.21

@Tealightsandd

Don't think anything much of Harriet Harmon regardless what the issue is.

Can't respect her views. Not after PIE.

Indeed.

aweegc spot on.

Lol wrong thread...

TRA's have been working into the top levels of all areas for so long now that they have been able to change the course of debate. We have been really slow on the uptake and will have to work to put this right. We will be able to do this.

Harriet is not scared, she is not that kind of woman. HH has been stonewalled good and proper. Words like 'difficult' 'complex' and 'complicated' are used as part of the no debate strategy. If HH had been on the side of women's rights, she would have stood up for Rosie Duffield. Saying the HH is really on the side of women but just keeping quiet is plain daft, the evidence doesn't stack up. I like HH but on this she is a complete dork and knows full well that the arguments are very thin

@LewishamMum

The reality is that most Labour women are keeping shtum about this. I can't help thinking that that is probably for the best. Yes, it's irritating and stupid and....but if they said ANYTHING they would be deselected, never promoted to a position of influence and it would push the Labour hierarchy to adopt a more extremist anti-women's position.

Most Labour women won't say anything, and in almost all cases it's because they support women. It's maddening as hell, but compared to the alternative, I say leave them be and so they are there to help us when the time comes.

If this is the real reason - that they are not speaking up to continue to have a place in the labour party - they are not doing it for women, they are doing it for themselves, to keep their job.

What is the point of having influence in the labour party if you cannot say what you believe? She's either just a puppet for TRA or she really believes women shouldn't be allowed space separate from men.

*The reality is that most Labour women are keeping shtum about this. I can't help thinking that that is probably for the best. Yes, it's irritating and stupid and....but if they said ANYTHING they would be deselected, never promoted to a position of influence and it would push the Labour hierarchy to adopt a more extremist anti-women's position.

Most Labour women won't say anything, and in almost all cases it's because they support women. It's maddening as hell, but compared to the alternative, I say leave them be and so they are there to help us when the time comes.*

My local MP fits into this category. She's an excellent local MP, but has no comment to make on this at all.

FWIW I'm not going to put up with this 'you do the heavy lifting, and we'll join in when the job's done' attitude. I think it's despicable.

and, sorry, but in response to
and it would push the Labour hierarchy to adopt a more extremist anti-women's position.
what could be worse than Labour's existing position?

Look I don't like this. I've been a member of the Labour Party for 20 years and this drives me nuts. Ultimately though the Tories post-May are not looking to fight on this front and so we can sit on the fence and rely on the law.
The law as it stands is on our side. Gender Reassignment is protected; waking up and thinking you might be the other sex is not, and don't get me started on "non-binary". Yes, the law is widely misunderstood and in practice most people assume StonewallLaw is in fact the law, but with no legal change on the horizon I think we can challenge that with legal challenges and education - and to be fair in the last few weeks with all the Stonewall controversies, followed by Maya's victory, I think we are turning a corner a bit. The ridiculous spectacle of a man entering a woman's sporting context in the Olympics will help too.
Politically keeping quiet, whilst challenging what is unlawful anti women activities is surely the best way forward?
For those saying they won't vote Labour, well vote in your constituency for the best outcome for women. Sometimes Labour, sometimes not.
(FWIW In the last leadership contest I vote for Starmer as Leader and whatever that Scottish bloke was called as Deputy simply because they were the only contestants who didn't sign that crazy document saying feminists should be excluded from the Labour Party. Bizarre - for the first time in my life I voted with sex at the forefront and voted for 2 men despite the candidates being virtually all female).