Harriet Harman throws women under the bus.

[Maskless]

This morning, Julia Hartley Brewer interviewed Harman about women's rights, and men invading women's sports.

Harman claimed that "deciding if somebody is male or female in sport is very difficult."

She also claimed that men in women's sports are not a threat.

Brewer said: "If you are born with a penis you are male; if you are born with a vagina you are female. It's quite simple, actually."

Harman replied: "It's not that simple, actually."

Why are all these female leftie politicians suddenly hell-bent on making themselves look complete fools AND betraying our sex?

It's the right wing Brewer who stated that she is concerned about the "erasure of women" (her words).

Is someone paying these Labour women? Have they been ordered to say things they know are not true? Are they being threatened or blackmailed?

twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1407247745799397379

I wonder why HH thinks it's so difficult to tell the difference between male and female in sports in particular? I would have thought it was even more blindingly obvious than in other situations, where it is mostly an absolute no-brainer.

It's the equality v equity thing, Whathtechicken. Giving them both the same size step ladder is equality. Making the 6ft bloke stand in the 1ft hole is equity. For equity in women's sport, were it to include trans women, you would need to give women a say, head starts in running events. It's just not workable, so trans women will always have an advantage.

Really disappointed to hear this. I have her autobiography and thought she had done some great stuff for women.

JHB was very good. HH was utterly shameful. Really really embarrassingly bad.

I think the sex for sports issue is, actually, quite difficult because DSD in nations where advanced health care isn't routine for children means that some people with rare genetics are not obviously male but still end up with some male advantages. It's definitely not as simple as if you've got/are born with a penis you're male and if you've got/are born with a vagina you're female. And the IOC has struggled with the borderline cases for decades.

Caster Semenya (and all the Women's 800m Olympic medal winners in 2016) are a case in point.

A strict "penis" test or a "what's on the original birth certificate" test is not sufficient at elite levels.

With regard to sport, there IS an answer to this problem, IMO.

Let trans women compete in the men's category but presenting in a feminine way and using their new, feminine forename, and referred to by female pronouns.

If you ignore the sound & just watch the video she looks utterly fucking terrified until she settles into a nice comfy "equality is really important for everyone except women " nonsense.

I don't agree. She looks uncomfortable, she looks resigned, she looks hesitant but she does not look terrified.

She looked extraordinarily uncomfortable.

She has been a vocal advocate for women's rights for years.

As for pie- that's another thread that's been done!

I got the message that there's no way she doesn't think this is a load of rubbish.

The problem is, she can't say it. We've seen other politicians, loads do this when asked these questions. Desperation to be anywhere else. Wanting to say something anything which will get it to stop but at the same time doesn't sound very firm. Because they don't believe it.

Have there been any other issues, ever. Where loads of politicians from across the parties. Clearly feel they cannot say what they think? Even hint at it? Ever?

These are people whose job essentially is debating. In a very shouty workplace. They are used to being disliked, hated even. They have horrible cartoons drawn about them in popular serious media. They are mocked. They rarely suggest anything that will not be aggressively criticed by loads of people in a really public way.

And they can't say what they think. You can see it. You can hear it.

That's really serious.

@NumberTheory
I sort of agree with you. I think ultimately the test should be if you've got a Y chromosome you can't compete in the women's events. How and why you've got one (Semenya or Hubbard), or whether you are XY like they are, or XXY which is more common and was the main issue in the 800 metres shouldn't matter. Yes, such a rule is unfair on individuals, but this is a competition, and the integrity of the competition should take precedence. Otherwise women's sports simply won't exist at all.

That that means some won't make it isn't the greatest injustice. I will never make it to the Olympics because of the body I was born with! But that's got nothing to do with any disorders/differences at all!

@NumberTheory
You are right but the incidence of DSDs is around 1 in 5500. So a tiny number - still a difficult problem to be dealt with, but not a reason to allow all male XY people into women's sport.

The reality is that most Labour women are keeping shtum about this. I can't help thinking that that is probably for the best. Yes, it's irritating and stupid and....but if they said ANYTHING they would be deselected, never promoted to a position of influence and it would push the Labour hierarchy to adopt a more extremist anti-women's position.

Most Labour women won't say anything, and in almost all cases it's because they support women. It's maddening as hell, but compared to the alternative, I say leave them be and so they are there to help us when the time comes.

@MajesticWhine
No idea on the actual numbers, but there's only one Gold medal in each sport/competition. Ultimately there are millions of men who - with the right training and focus etc - could out run/jump/skip a woman. Clearly the reverse is never going to be true.
So even if the numbers are very low, it can easily lead to a competition being unopen for women - the 800m race is a case in point, where all three medallists in 2016 had a Y chromosome. That means no woman could get a medal at that event. Banning Y chromosomes is the only way to protect women's (XX) sport.

But where does Harriet Hartman think her career is going? She's 70 fucking years old. I'm fairly sure I've seen her say she won't be standing again anyway. What's she afraid of? If she can't start saying what she thinks now, at this stage of her career, of her life even, then really what's the point of being in politics at all?

*These are people whose job essentially is debating. In a very shouty workplace. They are used to being disliked, hated even. They have horrible cartoons drawn about them in popular serious media. They are mocked. They rarely suggest anything that will not be aggressively criticed by loads of people in a really public way.

And they can't say what they think. You can see it. You can hear it.

That's really serious.*

This. Spot on, NiceGerbil.

@NumberTheory

I think the sex for sports issue is, actually, quite difficult because DSD in nations where advanced health care isn't routine for children means that some people with rare genetics are not obviously male but still end up with some male advantages. It's definitely not as simple as if you've got/are born with a penis you're male and if you've got/are born with a vagina you're female. And the IOC has struggled with the borderline cases for decades.

Caster Semenya (and all the Women's 800m Olympic medal winners in 2016) are a case in point.

A strict "penis" test or a "what's on the original birth certificate" test is not sufficient at elite levels.

Competing in elite sport is expensive. A simple chromosome test once someone starts showing serious talent is a minor cost and inconvenience, even for less affluent countries.

Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui (the 3 Rio 800m medal winners) all have XY chromosomes. I don't think it was complicated, the IOC just didn't care enough about women's sports to prevent them running will full male levels of testosterone before.

[quote MajesticWhine]@NumberTheory
You are right but the incidence of DSDs is around 1 in 5500. So a tiny number - still a difficult problem to be dealt with, but not a reason to allow all male XY people into women's sport. [/quote]
It's not. But HH didn't say all XY people should be allowed to participate in women's sport. She said it was difficult. And it is.

@Truthlikeness
Agreed.

I really think there should be some alternative "Real Olympics for Women" organisation, which would list the Gold, etc winners who are in fact women. Seriously, who were the top 3 women in that 2016 800m event? At least as women, we should acknowledge their achievements as fellow women.

Caster Semenya (and all the Women's 800m Olympic medal winners in 2016) are a case in point.

Once you dig into those cases, they suddenly seem a lot clearer. The way Semenya has been presented to the world stage of sport is a masterclass in propaganda and spin. This is not a lone runner trying to decide whether to enter the Great North Run as a male or a female, this is all about the money involved in high-level sports management and sponsorship.

@NumberTheory
Why is it difficult to restrict women - with XX chromosomes - to those who are women with XX chromosomes. Anything else, you can join the men's event. If you're not good enough? Well join the planets other several billions inhabitants in that.

@LewishamMum

The reality is that most Labour women are keeping shtum about this. I can't help thinking that that is probably for the best. Yes, it's irritating and stupid and....but if they said ANYTHING they would be deselected, never promoted to a position of influence and it would push the Labour hierarchy to adopt a more extremist anti-women's position.

Most Labour women won't say anything, and in almost all cases it's because they support women. It's maddening as hell, but compared to the alternative, I say leave them be and so they are there to help us when the time comes.

Trouble is if Labour women are so petrified of speaking out about evident injustice (men identifying as women and removing women from sporting places, scholarships and medals) then they're going to be too bloody scared to speak up against any injustice if the 'opposition' is equally unhinged / scary. You can't be in politics with that level of fear. It renders you useless.

@LewishamMum

The reality is that most Labour women are keeping shtum about this. I can't help thinking that that is probably for the best. Yes, it's irritating and stupid and....but if they said ANYTHING they would be deselected, never promoted to a position of influence and it would push the Labour hierarchy to adopt a more extremist anti-women's position.

Most Labour women won't say anything, and in almost all cases it's because they support women. It's maddening as hell, but compared to the alternative, I say leave them be and so they are there to help us when the time comes.

I totally get it women keeping quiet - it's understandable when you see what has happened to other women who have spoken up. What I find hard to grasp is when women like HH talk about it and present themselves as believing in TWAW.

DSDS are a totally separate issue.

Yes it is complicated especially where the person doesn't know. You can bet your bottom dollar though that if people with DSDs can compete with women if they have been assumed to be one due to a DSD, certain countries will be on the hunt for children who would be able to compete in the women's competition in forthcoming years.

Anyway. Totally different.

This is about those that were born bog standard male. A separate matter.

I didn't think she did, war.

She kept trying to turn the conversation to discrimination, violence etc.

She did not want to give an answer to the actual question at all and I can't remember now if she did- I don't think so.

@Truthlikeness

Competing in elite sport is expensive. A simple chromosome test once someone starts showing serious talent is a minor cost and inconvenience, even for less affluent countries.

Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui (the 3 Rio 800m medal winners) all have XY chromosomes. I don't think it was complicated, the IOC just didn't care enough about women's sports to prevent them running will full male levels of testosterone before.

The IOC has been going back and forth for decades and fought in the courts over testosterone limits and other restrictions. It's absurd to say they just didn't care enough. They see it as tricky in part because not all people who grow up thinking they are female despite having xy genes have an advantage over other females in sport.

@NiceGerbil

DSDS are a totally separate issue.

Yes it is complicated especially where the person doesn't know. You can bet your bottom dollar though that if people with DSDs can compete with women if they have been assumed to be one due to a DSD, certain countries will be on the hunt for children who would be able to compete in the women's competition in forthcoming years.

Anyway. Totally different.

This is about those that were born bog standard male. A separate matter.

I don't think it is totally different. It's more sympathetic. You have to feel sorry for Semenya, in a way I can't feel for with Hubbard, but if we are to be clear about women's sport being for women then we need to define it and apply it irrespective of hard cases. I can't see how anything other than XX chromosomes only are the way to go. (I do accept, that outside of elite sports, then the situations are totally different.)

None of those who got medals at the 800s m event were trans, but still deprived biological women of any medals.

Plus, unless we are clear and consistent, it's much easier to dismiss us as transphobic rather than pro women.