Persons of child bearing potential

[whatnow41]

Or they could have said Women and girls, given that they have also covered off transgender and non-binary people who were born female further down.

Child bear-ing ? Is that something like pup-play ?

Stonewall training being sold into NHS trusts. Stonewall tells NHS staff that this new language is the law. It's not, obviously.

This Stonewall "new speak" has to be called out wherever we see it. Their aim is to erase women and girls.

I'm just waiting for the Birmingham Women's Hospital being renamed something else ludicrous...any ideas??

Similar posters in my radiology dept HowamIalmost50

"Please tell us if you may be pregnant" is perfectly good enough, short and clear, and five years ago before any of these arguments blew up no one would have thought twice about such wording.

Change is coming though. First an email was circulated stating that for avoidance of doubt everyone aged 12-55 should be asked if they could be pregnant. A couple of consultants kicked off saying a 50 year old man would think the staff were idiots if they were asked the question. As far as I know there hasn't been an official retraction of the email but it has been quietly kicked into the long grass. No one is going to do it.

However just today I have heard that other documents are going gender neutral. Eg our WHO pre-procedure checklist asks "Has the patient given his/her consent?" These are now going to be rewritten.

Again it's fairly easy simply to leave out pronouns, having recently had dealings with a trans person I had no difficulty getting through the checklist by saying for example "Name has given consent, Name has no allergies, Name does not take anticoagulants", it didn't sound clumsy. Meanwhile my colleague cheerfully and unthinkingly misgendered the person throughout the procedure. They didn't seem to mind thankfully.

I actually think that for people who haven't spent the last three years being educated by Mumsnet there is widespread lack of understanding - most of my colleagues are still living in ignorant bliss and are completely unaware of the whole issue.🤷‍♀️

It takes a bit of back learning to think through the issues, and work out ways to deal with it. Meaning for many people they won't have done that, so will find themselves unthinkingly sucking up the stonewall training or whatever re-education is delivered and that is probably one of the reasons why these training models have been so effective. People are shocked and bemused and so they instantly submit.

GettheetotheGulag, would the referral notes make the sex of the patient clear, or would you have to guess?

Please OP let me know which trust it is or contact them again.

The 12yo part is incredibly disturbing.

@NiceGerbil I think that's pretty standard for NHS. Triage (ambulance) will ask if any chance of pregnancy for the same age so 12 and over
That was always fun to ask the mum of a 12yo..

You can't see any problem with having it on a poster like that??

This is what I wrote earlier

'
The age starts at 12.

Just up there on a wall. 12. If could be pregnant. May do extra tests.

As if it's just totally normal. Standard. That a 12 yo might be pregnant and they'd proceed exactly the same as for a 40yo.

What the actual fuck are they thinking?

It implies that if they get a pregnant 12yo then there will be no questions. No concern. No alarm raised. No social services. Nothing.

I can't believe they're displaying that. I'm properly really angry.

The law for rape in this country is. Under 13. no excuses. No mitigation.

The NHS just casually put this sign up.'

'And for the patients. The girls. What do they take from that?

The girls who are being sexually abused. It would freak them out surely? And they would worry what was going to happen. What they would be asked. What the tests were.'

It's not fine.

And I don't care if it's what posters say now.

Asking is slightly different but still. You are possibly going to get s response that indicates s child is being sexually abused. I assume protocols are in place.

And for some children who are being sexually abused, they are put on the spot between disclosing something that they are terrified of the repurcussions of, or lying when they are injured/ ill and afraid of what the consequences of that might be.

No I'm not saying it's fine but - we had to ask. If they said yes, she's 12 and pregnant then we would answer yes to the question and do nothing further at that point. Safeguarding would be at a later point which is what I'm guessing would happen here
So the radiographer would get told yes, they would flag it and someone else would do the safeguarding bit of it
I don't want to say it's not their job, but their job is safety of the female/baby, whereas someone else's is why she is pregnant/who/sexual assault etc

Or for example safeguarding has already been done when it's known they are pregnant, and the child is coming for an x ray for something, maybe they've broken their wrist
It's shit, but they have to specify an age and horrific though it is they have to presume pregnant unless proven otherwise if they could physically get pregnant
They can't put 16 and up because they'll miss the ones who are pregnant and under that, and that's risky for the baby and also if it's not spotted then they can't safeguard

So there would be no reaction at that point to s pregnant 12yo other than proceeding with the planned test and sending her home.

That would be a massive and brave disclosure. The lack of any reaction would be gutting to her.

I think that's pretty awful TBH.

And remember this is not a 1-1 conversation.
It's up on a poster for everyone whatever their situation to consume the message it sends.

My girls both started their periods before year 6. They were 10 and s half.

So it's a fail there as well.

I don't think it implies that they won't ask questions about how and why a 12 year old is pregnant at all. Just that for the radiographer/whoever it isn't relevant at that moment in time. That doesn't mean they won't refer it on.

I'm a CSA survivor. If, at 12, I'd seen a sign that said "it's important you let us know if you could be pregnant" (or words to that effect) followed by "if you say yes and you're under 15 we will make a SS referral" I would have lied as I'd be scared of the repercussions. If I thought i could say "yes. Im sexually active" without anyone questioning why I would have been far less likely to lie.

I know - I was 9. I honestly don't know in that situation
From say ringing an ambulance it would go
I ask if they could be pregnant, they say yes, I dispatch ambulance and don't do anything at that point except flag possible pregnancy (which we would flag at any age if they said yes)
Then the paramedics would get there, confirm situation/possible pregnancy and then raise safeguarding

So I'm only guessing that the radiographer would do similar as in raise it as safeguarding and do test/not to test, but they would probably get someone there and then

@NiceGerbil I asked radiographers in my department this exact question yesterday (although our posters don't specify age". They fully expect a scared 13 year old would deny all anyway so they try to ask the question when they have them alone in the X-ray room.
Safeguarding is everyone's responsibility and we all have to do the training. They would make necessary referrals after doing the X-ray. And pointed out occasions when there had been suspicious fractures and they went straight round to A&E to report in person. They would do the same for a pregnant 12 year old.

I think the posters are bad and it's a bit silly having the age range on them as the radiographers are the ones who need to be aware. The simple question "could you be pregnant" really covers it, and can be asked discreetly.

Also @merrymouse our referral letters still say sex. That might be about to change....

I wonder where the Plain English Campaign stands on all this Stonewall mangling of clear speech. they did such brilliant work in the 1980s and1990s changing incomprehensible forms and information into lucid, short sentences.

@Cowbells

I wonder where the Plain English Campaign stands on all this Stonewall mangling of clear speech. they did such brilliant work in the 1980s and1990s changing incomprehensible forms and information into lucid, short sentences.

I agree

I had to use it for an early job and it was excellent

It really makes you think about accessibility and just how much we make it harder for people

'"if you say yes and you're under 15 we will make a SS'

I would not ever suggest that they put that on a poster.

Given my posts I'm surprised you think that was what I wanted.

They ask the parents or child calling 999 if the child could be pregnant?

Couldn't that easily result in hanging up/ saying oh no it's ok there's traffic we can put her in the car. And not attend?

Because it didn't dawns on them that serious CSA could be revealed?

These policies don't seem to have been considered from the pov of what the consequences could be.

I'm really surprised.

A few women still have 'child bearing potential' beyond 55 so it's a bit ageist as well as disrespectful to the majority of women and girls, and may not be clear to women who don't have English as a first language.

But who gives a damn about any of them, eh?

@NiceGerbil yes - if they ring with abdo pain. If they're of child bearing age and feeling faint with abdo pain then it's ectopic pregnancy until proven otherwise

A 12 year old child ringing 999 on distress would be asked that? Presumably one home alone? Is there no thought of the possible consequences?

@NiceGerbil they have to ask. If they don't and it's an ectopic...
same with vaginal bleeding, it will be asked then. If they didn't. Let's say a 13yo rings with slight vaginal bleeding. We don't ask so it goes down as not urgent and no need to stay on the phone - She then delivers a baby by herself
It's been protocol since way before I started and I worked for the ambulance service for a decade