Tavistock gender clinic ‘converting’ gay children

[NonnyMouse1337]

It's what we all knew but still upsetting to read.

Times article - www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tavistock-gender-clinic-converting-gay-children-tz8cs77p3

Archive link - archive.is/F3Z6m

rogdmum Everytime I think I'm shocked and then more and more comes to the surface. Will I ever be peaked shocked?

It's what I was scared of when dd was referred to the Tavistock. She'd experienced complex trauma, bullying over being a 'dyke', severe OCD and undiagnosed ASD amongst other things. There was a lot of untangling to do in the exploration of her gender identity. Experience of local CAMHS made me think the Tavistock would be no better at complex cases.

Reading that clinicians were being pushed away from talking about sexuality and other outside factors is chilling. When, and why, did the senior GIDS leaders lose curiosity over the contributing factors? Why does GIDS need to disregard safeguarding in a way no other speciality does?

This is seriously chilling!

How had the “do no harm” oath been met here?

When, and why, did the senior GIDS leaders lose curiosity over the contributing factors? Why does GIDS need to disregard safeguarding in a way no other speciality does?

Yes. Who was influencing them?

@rogdmum

I don’t have access in a way that I can share a link, but there is a lot of concern about homophobia,, e.g. Polly Carmichael making a comment to him that the gay staff were too close to the work, and a at a Family Day, a parent commenting on the “LGBs” and not wanting their child to associate with people with that sort of “hedonistic lifestyle”.

Bernadette Wren - ex Tavistock - on some history:

100years.tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/bernadette-wren-on-change/?v=79cba1185463

'In 1995 Domenico de Ceglie set out the therapeutic aims and values for GIDS by which the service still abides. These include the ‘unconditional acceptance and respect’ for young people’s expression of their gender identity. “Those therapeutic aims still represent the core values of the service – they’re Domenico’s lasting legacy,” says Bernadette. “He grasped that if you want to have a genuine engagement with young people you have to take very seriously what they feel and what they say.” And she adds: “if you want to know how GIDS still operates, read Domenico’s aims.”'

Domenico de Ceglie is author of this book:

www.amazon.co.uk/Stranger-My-Own-Body-Development/dp/1855751836?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Foreword by John Money:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money

CONTENT WARNING: CSA:

Money based much of his work on gender on the tragic case of David Reimer.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Readers may find Money's views on paedophilia of note.

Allison Bailey has just posted a thread on this <a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5e79e3d4-d110-11eb-8afd-f729c1c2ffd0?shareToken=6b6c153477b5095f442b793efe101f85" target="_blank">Link to tweet

Corrected link to Allison's tweet.

@TheShadowyFeminist

Allison Bailey has just posted a thread on this www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5e79e3d4-d110-11eb-8afd-f729c1c2ffd0?shareToken=6b6c153477b5095f442b793efe101f85" target="_blank">Link to tweet

Ignore this, no idea what this link is to 🤔

Apparently Iran has the second highest per capita rate of sex reassignment surgery in the world, after Thailand. The point being that you're not allowed to be gay in Iran, so being trans is the next best thing.

We like to think we're a long way out in front of ignorant, backward Islamic theocracies. Turns out some of us, not so much.

I read the article early today and was both angry and sad.

Just think, if Stonewall had stuck with it original purpose of protecting the rights of same sex attracted people they could have played a positive role in how young people referred to GIDs or whever, to act as voice and champion the fact that being lesbian or gay is perfectly all right.

And would fit their brief of being opposed to conversion therapy of lesbians and gays.

But now here they are aiding and abetting conversion therapy, and getting funding to do it.

(Just to say that some of the Times news articles aren't behind a paywall, for instance this one and the one about Liz Truss. And just wish all the ones the published about women's sex based rights were not behing pay wall so that many more can read them given the deluge of pro trans acticles published each day.)

Hopefully the inappropriate influence that so many adult lobby groups have had over this service will be exposed. If the truth were to be exposed about how adults were able to use a medical service for children to pursue their own agenda about validating their adult choices, the heavens would fall in.

@HidingFromTheChildren

There is a definite link between parental issues and homosexuality. Nobody likes to admit it however.

Have you evidence of this?

Homosexuality in boys is apparently higher in boys born after other male children, and obviously some parents are (sadly) homophobic, which will obviously be problematic.

But you appear to be implying that poor parenting causes homosexuality. I am unaware of any indication of that, or even evidence suggesting it as a possibility. Is there something I can read, or is it conjecture on your part?

I think Hiding meant that there is a link between being transgender and having parents who disapprove of homosexuality.

In 2009 40 girls under 18 were referred to doctors for gender treatment in England. By 2017 the number had soared to 1,806.

Let's imagine for a minute that we are in a better place now and that it's a good think that more children are getting 'help' for gender issues. That might imply that in 2009 1,766 young girls went without the treatment they needed. I would really like to know what happened to those young girls and where they are now? I suspect most are living completely normal lives, possibly a high proportion are lesbians. I would bet money they are more likely to be happy than those would entered treatment in 2017.

twitter.com/STILLTish/status/1406636710717427715

' Surely there could not have been anyone raising the alarm as far back as 2005? #KeiraBell #soniaappleby

Wrong. Taylor Report. From 2005!'

bbc article on the taylor report: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54374165

@FifteenToes

Apparently Iran has the second highest per capita rate of sex reassignment surgery in the world, after Thailand. The point being that you're not allowed to be gay in Iran, so being trans is the next best thing.

We like to think we're a long way out in front of ignorant, backward Islamic theocracies. Turns out some of us, not so much.

Being trans is the next best thing to being executed for being homosexual. A choice between death and sex reassignment surgery...

@EishetChayil

I think Hiding meant that there is a link between being transgender and having parents who disapprove of homosexuality.

Thanks for clarifying. Now that, I do agree seems a viable theory in some cases.

This has come up a number of threads. Quite honestly before any assessment of a child do an assessment of the parent.

And whether they are overtly homophobic or are deeply entrenched gender conformist(*), send them of for analysis and leave the children alone.

(*) There was a well publicised at the time case of a fundamentalist christian family in the US who were quite happy to see their twin daughters transition to trans men rather then be non feminine and lesbian. Its not just Iran whose fundamentalism sees transition as preferable to homosexuality or lesbianism.

A year ago TODAY, JK Rowling wrote:

"Some say they decided to transition after realising they were same-sex attracted, and that transitioning was partly driven by homophobia, either in society or in their families"

That might imply that in 2009 1,766 young girls went without the treatment they needed. I would really like to know what happened to those young girls and where they are now? I suspect most are living completely normal lives, possibly a high proportion are lesbians. I would bet money they are more likely to be happy than those would entered treatment in 2017.

A very good point KenDodd and a question that needs asking on MSM

So the Employment tribunal will only decide Sonia's case.... so what could happen next with this issue? The trans the gay away issue? the TAVI not fit for purpose issue? etc etc

Quite honestly before any assessment of a child do an assessment of the parent.

From the evidence given by Anastassis Spiliadis in Sonia Appleby's court case last week:

Sonia was reviewing cases and enquiring why cases involving emotional abuse by mother and suspected FII had not been referred.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3961244-GIDS-being-sued-by-their-safeguarding-lead?msgid=108223411#108223411

FII = Fabricated or induced illness.