How do you cope with the anger when dealing with issues and idiots?

[BigButtons]

I have recently become more actively involved in reading threads and articles and having active discussions on women’s issues and the whole GC issue.
I still don’t understand a lot of the terminology and am confused by many of the laws and arguments on here and elsewhere.
I find it very hard to put my thoughts into words as I just feel so angry about the whole thing; the erosion of women, appropriation, trans rights, all of it.
I really want to be become better informed, I want to be able to hold my own in discussions . It all makes me so angry though that I find I just get emotional rather than pouring measures arguments forward.
How do you deal with that?
Is anger a part of fighting this fight?

[quote jennytogether]@CardinalLolzy oh and regarding your earlier comment, I understand that when being gay was less accepted in society one of the points of resistance was that gay men shouldn’t be able to use male changing , and gay women shouldn’t be able to use female changing rooms because of the perceived threat. My use of the word “we” was meant to refer to society as a whole, where gay men in particular were often aligned with paedophilia, totally inappropriately.[/quote]
Just noting that I disagree that gay men were aligned with paedophilia but I don't think that's exactly what you meant. (Maligned as paedophiles, maybe?)
Apols if I look like I'm being pedantic but, yknow, screenshots - I don't want to look like I'm agreeing with something I'm not.

What are the proposed changes in the law that will increase the risk to women?

Well, that's a whole other thread, but I'd start with thinking about why we have sex-segregated spaces in the first place. And prisons would be my starting point as to the risks of putting violent XY people in an enclosed space with XX people.

The words I used were, 'How can you use the term 'male on female' but remain unconcerned about what this means - in general terms and in the actual law'.
How can we campaign for effective research, interventions and policies to reduce the number of XX people that are murdered by XY people (as well as sexist workplace practices, medical treatment, ad bloody infinitum!) if when we talk about 'women' we are including any XY person that might say they feel a certain way? We are already seeing an increase in violent/sexual crimes by women because the XY perpetrators self-describe as women and are recorded as female perpetrators. It muddles the evidence base, and stops us from looking at real-life situations and risks if we are unable to differentiate XX from XY in language and law.

There seems to be this generally believed notion that a trans woman is, in law, someone who has done or changed something in order to be able to claim they are a woman, or can be confidently discerned from a 'cis' man. Do you think this is the case?

@jennytogether

Are you angry about something that has actually happened, or the idea that something bad might happen? Self ID has been happening in terms of toilets and changing rooms for years… (the current amendments to the Gender Act don’t change this) why do you feel so angry about it now? I’m putting myself out here for lots of argument I suspect, and I used to feel aligned with GC because it’s hard to dispute that someone born male can switch to totally female biology. But then I started to see trans women as women and my sisters who are trapped inside the wrong body (exactly like me but with years of struggle), and I want to support and help them as much as any woman. I think that excluding these women (trapped) from our fold will have greater damaging consequences than the impacts of self ID. It’s been happening for so long that I don’t see the real life evidence that it is worth shutting out trans women for.

It all reminds me of the old debate around whether gay people should be allowed to use same sex facilities. And I hope we’ve all moved on from thinking that because someone is gay they’re out to violently assault.

I personally think that we have all muddled together previously without many issues. The past couple of years this debate has ramped up. There are many documented issues that women have faced from allowing trans women in single sex spaces, and other areas such as employment representation, skewered crime stats etc... but I think this is becoming so mainstream that all those male sex offenders paedos now see a very valid loophole which they can gain access to vulnerable women and children. Part of safeguarding is that you prevent problems from happening, so allowing anyone to self id means all those nefarious men can go where the hell the like with no one able to stop them. I think this problem will get much bigger in the coming years and more men realise this perfect loophole for them.

But then I started to see trans women as women and my sisters who are trapped inside the wrong body
What you seem to be talking about is transsexuals. When the law allowed transsexuals to be in women's spaces it was believed there were very few of them and they would have gone through a period of transition either through hormones, surgery or both. That is no longer the case. The current idea of gender id has nothing to do with "being in the wrong body" and indeed this is no longer used or accepted by Mermaids I believe. The bathroom question is the thin end of the wedge. If we accept that society categorizes people by gender not sex then that affects everything including women's sports which will be destroyed.

@jennytogether - what do you feel about men who commit sex crimes being housed in women’s prisons because they self id as women?

Are they counted in the ‘sisters trapped in the wrong body’ you are so concerned about 🤔

@jennytogether. I shall try and answer you questions. I see it as getting in practice.

Are you angry about something that has actually happened, or the idea that something bad might happen?
Both. I am angry about the fact that an XY person can enter the space where an XX person used to feel safe and where they could be vulnerable.
I am angry that they have been given permission to do this without taking in the needs and wishes of XX people.
I am angry that Xy people have been allowed in women's prisons and have assaulted women there.

I am angry that women are threatened and abused if they refuse to comply with the wishes of the XY people.

I am angry that my daughter is being asked to call herself a future birth giver and not a woman- up until now she has been just a girl and then woman. Who asked her permission to change her name and identity? or does her identity not matter to an XY person?

I am angry about the future attacks, the abuse the threats, the silencing, the feeling threatened that will continue to happen because of the desires of those XY people who couldn't give a shit that they are trampling over the safe spaces , wishes and rights of the women they claim they are,- the irony.

But then I started to see trans women as women and my sisters who are trapped inside the wrong body
They don't want to be men but that doesn't mean they are women or have the right to define what women are or demand to be included in that group to the detriment of women . They should be looking to broaden the definition of being a man rather than trying to widen what it means to be a woman.

and I want to support and help them as much as any woman

yes they should be supported but not to the detriment of women and women's safety., .

I think that excluding these women (trapped) from our fold will have greater damaging consequences
why would this be? What about the damaging consequences for women open to predation because they are forced to accept possible disguised predatory males into their safe spaces?

I don’t see the real life evidence that it is worth shutting out trans women for.
What about the attacks in toilets and prisons?

i'm tired now

You’re not allowed to protest beforehand because that’s being hysterical, you’re not allowed protest afterwards because you’re a bigot

Very good point. It's like the issue of "tone". Women are told that they are too strident, too shouty...if they would just present their arguments in a more moderate way they would be listened to. Well, guess what? That doesn't work either. It's called mysogyny.

Meanwhile Men continue to tell women how to behave and How to Think

Sad

I would like to understand the law regarding protected safe spaces and who is allowed in them. It seems very complicated as most laws are. I have googled to some extent but feel out of my depth . Is there an idiots guide anywhere?

@BigButtons

I would like to understand the law regarding protected safe spaces and who is allowed in them. It seems very complicated as most laws are. I have googled to some extent but feel out of my depth . Is there an idiots guide anywhere?

Et Voila

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4269545-What-right-to-a-single-sex-space-do-I-have-and-how

Here's a one-pager:

fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/EA2010_womensrights_-factsheet_new.pdf

OP, thank you for this thread. I was on twitter earlier & it annoyed me so much that when I walked away & did something else, I was aware of my stress & anger - even an hour later!

It makes me feel better to know that other people are going through this too - although of course I'd rather none of us had to. And reading this thread, I feel the injustice that women are being put through this stress which is never acknowledged or spoken about: that's just another level on which we don't matter. It's a cost to women which perhaps we should shout about & factor into the argument.

[quote jennytogether]@CardinalLolzy so maybe this is what I’m not understanding. What are the proposed changes in the law that will increase the risk to women? (Where self-ID to use toilets and changing rooms etc is already legal and has been for a long time)[/quote]
Do you really not know this?

Is there a thread anywhere to explain it, because I started to explain, lost the will to live & deleted it?

@ifIwerenotanandroid
@jennytogether

This thread may help, if it's not already been linked:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Also maybe useful: fairplayforwomen.com/examples/

Cheers, @Leafstamp

This is a nice lecture from Abigail Shrier