Why aren't transactivists gender-critical?

[oxcat1]

Please go easy on me if this is a stupid question.

If gender is simply the socially constructed expectations of how people should behave and dress, why isn't the trans movement gender critical? Surely to break down these societal expectations is in their interests (just as it is in the interest of women, feminists argue)?

Instead, the trans movement seeks to enshrine in law the very structure that makes living their own lives as they wish, free from constraints of societal expectations, so very difficult.

Why is that? Or have I totally misunderstood?

Bit late to this. Appreciate your responses, Barheim, and yet slightly baffled as many of them ("gender is sex role stereotypes") are things that have been said on here over the past years. Also the argument that ticking certain boxes for appearing trans/the opposite sex or whatever doesn't make you trans, that comes from within.

It's a bit late, I'm not sure I've got the head to look at it clearly tonight but your engagement is appreciated. Remember there are hundreds if not thousands of women on here who all have slightly different takes.

I think my comments would be

Woman and man mean sex. Adult human male/ female. We're mammals.

Sex I would guess is one of the first things that when language came would have been named. Food/ shelter/ danger/ man/ woman/ girl/ boy/ baby. Etc.

The idea these words mean something other than what is understood by the vast majority of the population and in the other words used around the world is..???

Who decided woman was an identity that anyone can have? And when?

And why not have new words and leave the established ones alone?

Because this (our biology) is the actual definition of a woman, in our GC opinion. You could say why are women not called cats, but that would be ridiculous, we're just not.

But why? Are you really content being forced and restricted to stay in one societal box, whether that's sex or gender, no matter how miserable it makes you to be in that, when it's so clearly so easy to throw the entire box out and flip societal expectations the bird?

Why should the presence of certain body parts indicate and force someone a woman? Why can't it indicate a man? Why can't it indicate either or none at all? It's incredibly easy to set up laws to protect people on the basis of autonomy on and protection of their own uterus if the people setting up the laws are willing, etcetera, why does it have to indicate the box of 'woman' and come with a set of regulations that ye shall not yeet yer tits and ye shall not consumeth testosterone and sayeth thee art a man lest we call ye a groomed lesbian, ye must suffer thirty more years of forced and non-functioning therapy because I sayeth so?

@TheRebelle

So gender can be defined as: Does this purple smell like the number four?

It makes as much sense as anything else on this thread.

You didn't answer the question.

Neither did you.

@Barheim

What is your understanding of 'being a man'?

Being a miserable little pile of secrets.

But really being trans doesn't make me a therapist or a pyschologist, armchair or not.

I know that since I'm recognized externally as who I perceive myself internally (which includes being a man and really, fuckall has changed beyond going 'hi I'm a dude' and transitioning) I'm finally no longer in constant struggle with myself, feeling like I'm playing a charade and living a lie to the point it was killing me.

Thank you for answering my question but I'm none the wiser. What was it that showed you that you are in fact a man? I always understood 'man' to be the descriptive word for an adult human male.

My struggle with this is that I have no internal sense of gender id so that makes it difficult. I understand that some people do but I can't know what that feels like.

I also have struggled against the role I was in as a girl for as long as I can remember. I didn't fit. I didn't understand why I was supposed to like this or wear that. Etc etc.

My response was a be a feminist from before I knew the word and say everyone should be free to behave and present etc as they want.

This idea that woman is nothing more than s feeling. And whatever is claimed it's fair to say that hair and makeup and skirts seem to be a big deal on transitioning. It feels like a bit of a kick in the gut tbh.

The co-opting of the language and arguments of other rights groups and often turning them on those who came up with them is a terrible thing to do.

@Barheim

Seriously, if you are a transman, why would you want to dress as a feminine woman? Wouldn't it just be easier to stay as a woman who dresses as a man sometimes? I mean why bother being 'trans', why not just be the sex you were born but enjoy all sorts of clothes?

I find it incredibly ironic that the people who argue that they're 'gender critical' are arguing that trans men aren't men because they dress in a feminine manner for however many times.

As said before, it's not us who are arguing that wearing a dress makes someone a woman.

I'm not a 'woman who dresses like a man sometimes'. I'm a man who wears whatever I like, because gender stereotypes are boring and restricting men to trousers and blouses is heinous. Make-up is crushed up pigmentation with a whole lot of E-numbers (obviously more, but), dresses are strips of fabric sewn together, none of it is 'for men' or 'for women'.

Okay so just to clarify, are you a transman? If so, how do you know? BTW I never said I was 'gender critical'. Just trying to understand where you are coming from.

@Barheim

What is your understanding of 'being a man'?

Being a miserable little pile of secrets.

But really being trans doesn't make me a therapist or a pyschologist, armchair or not.

I know that since I'm recognized externally as who I perceive myself internally (which includes being a man and really, fuckall has changed beyond going 'hi I'm a dude' and transitioning) I'm finally no longer in constant struggle with myself, feeling like I'm playing a charade and living a lie to the point it was killing me.

You're describing gender dysphoria. And the need to have the public help you in managing it.

We've had a trans person here say it's all about names and pronouns. Because that is the way of managing it.

In my opinion, what it shouldn't be is a political movement making detrimental demands. I believe that has stemmed not from transmen, but transwomen. (Largely, not exclusively)

Gender dysphoria however is real and distressing.

What would be really useful is to examine how it starts, and why. It's a solution to a problem that is not being examined.

Why do you think you are so distressed by being recognised as female?

(I suspect you will say because you're not. But to me, that's not really the story.)

But why? Are you really content being forced and restricted to stay in one societal box, whether that's sex or gender, no matter how miserable it makes you to be in that, when it's so clearly so easy to throw the entire box out and flip societal expectations the bird?

You can do whatever you like as far as I'm concerned except where it impinges on other people, and male-bodied people in women's spaces and pressurising us to go along with their version of femininity impinges on women's wellbeing.

Why should the presence of certain body parts indicate and force someone a woman?

Because that's how the word is defined.

Unless you mean 'should' in a moral sense? Do you think it's possible to have a word for the female sex - let's say, XX - which wouldn't gather the exact same cultural baggage of feminine gender eventually? Could we actually start again and say, 'look, starting from.... NOW 'wxxn' is the word for XX people. If you want to have a word for people that are feminine, we'll call those Fyrls'. Would the two remain separate or would a large proportion of society insist that as some wxxn are Fyrls, all are, so feeling like a fyrl makes you a wxxn?

No-one assumes all trans women are predatory.

I've heard plenty say they'd beat any trans woman who enters a woman's loo to death, that they'd rather a man sexually abuse them than a trans woman treat them in a hospital, or that they'd send child custody after transgender parents of children on the sole basis of them being transgender. The claim that 'someone's hard drive should be checked' is entirely standard in anything involving a trans woman, whether it be her working in a school, advocating for bodily autonomy or otherwise existing while trans.

to wear opposite sex clothes

opposite sex clothes don't exist.

'Are you really content being forced and restricted to stay in one societal box, whether that's sex or gender, no matter how miserable it makes you to be in that, when it's so clearly so easy to throw the entire box out and flip societal expectations the bird?'

Seriously??!!

'It's incredibly easy to set up laws to protect people on the basis of autonomy on and protection of their own uterus if the people setting up the laws are willing, etcetera,'

Because we had words to describe us as a group. The 50% of people in the world who have been oppressed by the other 50% for as far back as anyone can remember all over the world.

@Barheim

No-one assumes all trans women are predatory.

I've heard plenty say they'd beat any trans woman who enters a woman's loo to death, that they'd rather a man sexually abuse them than a trans woman treat them in a hospital, or that they'd send child custody after transgender parents of children on the sole basis of them being transgender. The claim that 'someone's hard drive should be checked' is entirely standard in anything involving a trans woman, whether it be her working in a school, advocating for bodily autonomy or otherwise existing while trans.

to wear opposite sex clothes

opposite sex clothes don't exist.

Not on here you haven't

Unless you mean 'should' in a moral sense? Do you think it's possible to have a word for the female sex - let's say, XX - which wouldn't gather the exact same cultural baggage of feminine gender eventually? Could we actually start again and say, 'look, starting from.... NOW 'wxxn' is the word for XX people. If you want to have a word for people that are feminine, we'll call those Fyrls'. Would the two remain separate or would a large proportion of society insist that as some wxxn are Fyrls, all are, so feeling like a fyrl makes you a wxxn?

The fuck is the 'feminine gender'?

If you're feminine, you're feminine, if you're a woman you're a woman. Femininity is associated with womanhood but being feminine doesn't make you a woman.

I've heard plenty say they'd beat any trans woman who enters a woman's loo to death, that they'd rather a man sexually abuse them than a trans woman treat them in a hospital, or that they'd send child custody after transgender parents of children on the sole basis of them being transgender.

Oh, come on. On here? I thought for a minute you were here in good faith.

Oh, come on. On here? I thought for a minute you were here in good faith.

Have I stated it was on here?

If you're feminine, you're feminine, if you're a woman you're a woman. Femininity is associated with womanhood but being feminine doesn't make you a woman.

This is essentially my catchphrase. Femininity is not necessary nor sufficient to make someone female, and vice versa.

The new language-

Menstruators
Ovulators
People with a cervix

Etc etc

Are
Dehumanising
Drawing attention to the very functions that are the root of our oppression
Still tabboo to some extent or another in I'm guessing all societies
Biologically illiterate in many cases
Are not understood by many

And

Men are still men and boys are still boys. In your face sexism.

The fuck is the 'feminine gender'?
Dunno! Isn't that the point?

Because we had words to describe us as a group. The 50% of people in the world who have been oppressed by the other 50% for as far back as anyone can remember all over the world.

Do you think that policing other people's perception of themselves and their societal position will change that? Like what's your goal here.

This is essentially my catchphrase. Femininity is not necessary nor sufficient to make someone female, and vice versa.

I'm trying very hard not to assume you're trying to point this to me, a feminine trans man, as a gotcha.

it's so clearly so easy to throw the entire box out and flip societal expectations the bird?

But it isn't, or most trans people wouldn't have to become lifelong medical patients to conform to what they believe the opposite sex body should be.

'I've heard plenty say they'd beat any trans woman who enters a woman's loo to death, '

This sort of reversal. It's crass.

Who in the world are the people who in the vast number of cases are beating others to death.

Testicle-semen people that's who.

How many women can take on s man in s fight and win? Erm...

If females are capable of beating males to death then all the VAW must be something they don't really mind, right. Because they can fight them off no probs. More than that. Win.

Are you really content being forced and restricted to stay in one societal box, whether that's sex or gender, no matter how miserable it makes you to be in that, when it's so clearly so easy to throw the entire box out and flip societal expectations the bird?

Your sex doesn't force you into a box or restrict you, beyond the obvious reproductive functions. It is society that does it, through sex based stereotypes and sex based role expectations. Thankfully in the UK I'm able to "flip societal expectations the bird" and throw out society's box - I do what suits me regardless of what anyone else might expect.