Why aren't transactivists gender-critical?

[oxcat1]

Please go easy on me if this is a stupid question.

If gender is simply the socially constructed expectations of how people should behave and dress, why isn't the trans movement gender critical? Surely to break down these societal expectations is in their interests (just as it is in the interest of women, feminists argue)?

Instead, the trans movement seeks to enshrine in law the very structure that makes living their own lives as they wish, free from constraints of societal expectations, so very difficult.

Why is that? Or have I totally misunderstood?

Can I have my blackberry back (women's voice)
If you know you know.

I mainly love Jungian theory because mathematics degree dh is unable to follow it and it makes me sound clever.
Also coincidence both is and isn't a thing.
Explaining it confuses people even more.

So a bit like this thread really.

@irresistibleoverwhelm

Incidentally, anyone's baby refused to sleep through the night from 3-16 months? Because I am really, really tired now.

Ah you poor thing. My DD was like this - it ended as soon as she dropped her nap, just before she turned 2, and then as soon as she refused to nap any more she suddenly slept 12 hours a night without waking! Sleep returned! You will sleep again!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please god!

I used to think trans meant 'I was born one sex, but I'd like people to think I was the opposite sex and treat me as if I was, because society treats the two sexes differently'.

Is this anywhere in the ball park of what it means now?

Also coincidence both is and isn't a thing.

That's funny, I swear me and my partner have had a 'discussion' about this. Any two things is a coincidence!

You're on the edge now and you need to pick the right way. Because one way's heaven and the other... well, probably best not to think about that right now, but it's fucking horrible yeah!

That is literally the tagline to my life right now.

And the earlybirds get the worm. ;)

My husband is amazing. But he's very logical so no late night Jungian conversations for me. Doesn't believe in coincidence or even ghosts.

Also doesn't believe in male rights to dismantle female spaces so at least I picked a good one there.

But does have calves that would look good in a skirt, should he ever indulge.

Is this anywhere in the ball park of what it means now?

It seems not, according to this one poster. Talk to someone else, they'll say differently. The mysteries of gender are wondrous to behold!

@CardinalLolzy

I used to think trans meant 'I was born one sex, but I'd like people to think I was the opposite sex and treat me as if I was, because society treats the two sexes differently'.

Is this anywhere in the ball park of what it means now?

I think it used to. Now it can mean whatever you want it to mean. Much like "woman" used to mean adult human female. Now it means anyone who says they are a woman. And "literal violence" used to mean actually physically hurting someone. Now it means "someone was mean and accidentally called me he not she"

Words change. Or something.

@CardinalLolzy

I used to think trans meant 'I was born one sex, but I'd like people to think I was the opposite sex and treat me as if I was, because society treats the two sexes differently'.

Is this anywhere in the ball park of what it means now?

Yes, and some people believe the sexes should be treated vastly more differently, than others.

@Blibbyblobby

It's so important that we must only group people by their self-identified gender but at the same time we can't tell you what those people have in common other than they choose to use the same label.

Yeah, I struggle with this too. I don't have anything in common with a trans woman that I don't also have in common with a man. I don't really get why we'd be grouped together, on what basis.

And no, it's not that we both 'identify as women'. I don't 'feel like a woman' in any sense, I just call myself that because I happened to be born into a female body.

@CardinalLolzy

I used to think trans meant 'I was born one sex, but I'd like people to think I was the opposite sex and treat me as if I was, because society treats the two sexes differently'.

Is this anywhere in the ball park of what it means now?

And society used to say "of course, subject to some common sense restrictions". Self-ID being pushed over the last few years is to rip up that old consensus and put all trans people at war with reality, whether as individuals they want that war or not.

The refusal to essentially allow any words that mean what the words girl, woman used to mean and the refusal to even acknowledge that is a pretty big deal that will be detrimental to women and girls globally is a real problem.

The idea there should be no words to even replace the groups women and girls, that are based on sex.

The enormity of that incursion is just so huge. Any statement referring to sex according to the new language should only refer to us in terms of our reproductive status and split us into groups as men have always done.

Menstruator- of interest.
Menopausal- not of interest. Don't even notice them. Often get above their place in meetings etc. A pita.
Vagina haver who is going through puberty. Definitely of interest to many.
People with vaginas. Vagina haver. Vagina is from the word for sheath. Something you put something inside.
Ovulator. How do you know?
Cervix have. If you've not had a smear. How do you know?
Menstruator is a real issue as a term that takes no account of how periods actually work.
Pregnant people. Many don't know. Not at the start.
And so on and so on.

Why are headlines like 'Uighar people with vaginas subjected to systematic rape' not being written? What's the correct way of putting it now then? Is it crass to refer to rape victims by the body parts that meant they were raped? I think so.

And men are men and boys are boys.

Thinking more I suppose.

I mean a lot of societal deeply held, unconsciously held beliefs are from religion, or before. Ideas the ancient Greeks had resonate today still in some areas- what sex roles look like.

In Victorian times and back through the past the set up in society- the way it should be. Men are the leaders, the debators, the lawmakers, the business people etc etc. From a village council to parliament. Women are essentially still 'other' and often unwanted.

Women's role was to look after those in her sphere. Especially husband. To be the helpmeet. To support him and make him comfy so he could do the important work.

Outspoken women/ women organising have always been viewed with suspicion/ hostility.

So given that men do the stuff and work together to do it, and that there is a woman to look after each man at an individual level. Why is there a need for a group name for women. They exist as individuals who support individual men. They are alone, as it were.

You see this idea in generally accepted ideas like

Women don't get on with each other. They compete and bitch and are jealous

Female dominated workplaces are rife with backstabbing and trivial arguments

Girls are always horrible to each other at school

...

So. Why do we need words to describe us as a group? We're a bunch of individual 2D stereotypes who don't get on with each other and at an individual level are expected to focus on others.

People seem to want the word woman to be based on the state of being or not being a man. If you are a man, you are a man. If not, you are a woman.
However, the state of being trans seems to be about womanhood. If a man desires to be a woman, then they say they are a woman, whereas being trans for women (or more to the point, girls) seems to be about the desire to not be a woman rather than than the desire to be a man.
I am sure this is not universal but it seems to be the case in very many cases. I’m not a philosopher or a linguist, so I’m not describing my thoughts very well. It just seems that despite the phrase women are whatever men say they are, it is the binary of desire to be a woman or lack of it that defines gender status, not the desire to be a man or lack of it.
Perhaps that is part of the reason why the word woman is such a focus, rather than the word man. The desire to be a man is much less relevant to anything, so the word is less fought over.
I’m just playing with thoughts here, not saying this is absolutely true.

You haven't misunderstood. It's all about stereotypes. Drives me potty.

Well, that was an interesting read through this morning. Just goes to show when you redefine words to represent completely different concepts to what those words mean to everyone else, you significantly reduce your ability to make yourself understood, especially when you are also not able to explain the new definitions you are using, even to people interested and willing to try to understand you.

My first baby slept really well until about 4 months old then it all went to shit. I thought I'd cracked this whole baby lark until then

18 months was the worst - but it got better after that

Anyway, do we need a link to the "this never happens" thread?

If gender is simply the socially constructed expectations of how people should behave and dress, why isn't the trans movement gender critical? Surely to break down these societal expectations is in their interests (just as it is in the interest of women, feminists argue)?

Agreed op!
Hmmm maybe because that's not really what they are all about 🤔

@Nellodee

People seem to want the word woman to be based on the state of being or not being a man. If you are a man, you are a man. If not, you are a woman. However, the state of being trans seems to be about womanhood. If a man desires to be a woman, then they say they are a woman, whereas being trans for women (or more to the point, girls) seems to be about the desire to not be a woman rather than than the desire to be a man. I am sure this is not universal but it seems to be the case in very many cases. I’m not a philosopher or a linguist, so I’m not describing my thoughts very well. It just seems that despite the phrase women are whatever men say they are, it is the binary of desire to be a woman or lack of it that defines gender status, not the desire to be a man or lack of it. Perhaps that is part of the reason why the word woman is such a focus, rather than the word man. The desire to be a man is much less relevant to anything, so the word is less fought over. I’m just playing with thoughts here, not saying this is absolutely true.

Yes. Many men's motivation seem to want to embrace (their version) of womanhood, whereas many women seem to want to abandon it. And 'manhood' is the only alternative.

a self-defined trait of oneself usually in association with the gender of people around you

Did I miss the significance of what the gender of the people around someone meant to their self-defined selves? I asked but I have not seem any reply.

Because I read this as ‘the way I describe myself compared to the behaviour of others who have a particular gender identity’.

To me this reads of identifying stereotypes and using it to define myself. (While saying that stereotypes should have nothing to do with shaping my gender identity)

But I could very well be wrong and am happy to be corrected.

it's all about pronouns and names.

It would seem so Datun, it would indeed seem so.

@Helleofabore nah, it’s a roundabout way of saying stereotypes.

I didn't get an answer to my question about whether it was discrimination not to let men (in general) into women's spaces.

There was this though from another thread!

[quote TheRebelle]@Helleofabore nah, it’s a roundabout way of saying stereotypes.[/quote]
That’s what I figured.

That’s why I thought the poster ignored my question. Because that would completely undermine the entire night’s work.