Why aren't transactivists gender-critical?

[oxcat1]

Please go easy on me if this is a stupid question.

If gender is simply the socially constructed expectations of how people should behave and dress, why isn't the trans movement gender critical? Surely to break down these societal expectations is in their interests (just as it is in the interest of women, feminists argue)?

Instead, the trans movement seeks to enshrine in law the very structure that makes living their own lives as they wish, free from constraints of societal expectations, so very difficult.

Why is that? Or have I totally misunderstood?

And you said women beating people to death.

Not women getting men to do it.

@Barheim

what do you think would happen if we divorced the word for biological XX people from cultural notions of what sex role stereotypes XX people might be seen to embody as a group? Would the two concepts stay separate? Are people (society in general) able to mentally separate bio sex from whatever gender is?

There already isn't a single unifying word for people with two X chromosomes beyong the nominer of 'people with XX chromosomes' as that includes men and women that are and aren't trans.

Right but I'm saying if we did, not the situation 'already'.

Sooo... Angry violent men are the footsoldiers and women are the generals. Directing them. To kill.

The existence of any examples of women calling in men to beat trans women to death doesn't equate to 'angry violent men are the footsoldiers and women are the generals directing them to kill'.

... For that matter the odds of any trans woman showing up to anything are slim

Really? I don't think you know your own community as well as you think you do. I guess it's because you are maybe hanging with the men or mixed groups, as an FTM trans person, and not in women's groups?

I think you're right, Jedi.

Right but I'm saying if we did, not the situation 'already'.

Which sex stereotypes would they share when the presence of XX chromosomes doesn't indicate much?

Barheim your take on this is genuinely fascinating.
Do you have a definition of 'man' or 'woman' that you can share with us? I think it would really help with understanding because you are clearly using a different definition to the one I'm familiar with adult human male - man, adult human female - woman.

Transphobia exists, definitely. I don’t think anyone’s arguing that. I’d define it as a feeling of repulsion toward trans people. I’ve been following this board for a few years now and I’ve only seen posters who exhibit that kind of feeling a very few times. If I recall correctly, they have been ripped to shreds by the regulars for being out of order.
I’m sorry that trans people experience abuse. I’m sure that the vast majority of posters on this board would find far more common ground with Barheim than they would with a genuine transphobe.

... For that matter the odds of any trans woman showing up to anything are slim

Have you not noticed that women are losing jobs, being physically threated, charities threatened wth losing funding if we don't allow male bodies in, or being called transphobic for wanting female healthcare?

@Barheim

The sex-based rights for people with female bodies to organise away from people with male bodies (if we haven't got to a place where all this language has become completely meaningless confused)

By all means start a talk group or whatever you desire exclusively for cis women or 'natal women' or whatever 'no transes allowed' vocabulary exists today and trans women will be incredibly unlikely to show up.

... For that matter the odds of any trans woman showing up to anything are slim, but that doesn't seem to stop people from insisting they're 'taking up women's spaces'.

I think women already set up those spaces and are fighting to keep them.

when the presence of XX chromosomes doesn't indicate much?

It does. The pathway for XX chromosomes is reliably female in the vast majority of cases. The tiny amount of people that it does not apply to have a biological disorder of sex development.

Really? I don't think you know your own community as well as you think you do. I guess it's because you are maybe hanging with the men or mixed groups, as an FTM trans person, and not in women's groups?

No, it's because many trans women hate going to places that aren't explicitely trans friendly because of the discrimination they keep face in those locations.

@Barheim

Right but I'm saying if we did, not the situation 'already'.

Which sex stereotypes would they share when the presence of XX chromosomes doesn't indicate much?

Sorry, maybe it's the way you've written it or me being tired but I can't tell what your question is. Would who share? Much what? I think I'm off to work now.

... For that matter the odds of any trans woman showing up to anything are slim

Can you name one single dating app, club, bar, women's group, etc, that is not targeted by transwomen?

Ever heard of Mitch Fest? Come to that, what about the WI?

I'm not sure you really understand the issues.

@Barheim

I think the goal is to have everyone accept that we all have sex-based rights, and then are all left to be free to be as masculine or feminine or binary as we choose.

Which sex-based rights are those?

And masculinity and femininity has nothing to do with it.

Are you talking globally here? Or what? It's a very broad question.

What definition of "trans woman" are you using? Because I can tell you it really isn't my experience, so I assume we must be talking at cross purposes.

It’s perfectly acceptable to have a feeling of revulsion towards arseholes, of course, on a case by case basis. I’m not saying there aren’ta fair few of then about, particularly on Twitter.

@Barheim

Why are you a trans man and not "just" a man if bodies don't make someone a man or woman?

Honestly I'd love a future where we can just throw the whole label of trans in a bin and a man's a man, a woman's a woman and a non-binary person is a non-binary person but until then I kind of need it to reflect on the fact that as a man born with a vagina I frequently get discriminated against on that basis.

Literally, the only reason this hasn't already happened is because Trans Orthodoxy wanted to redefine words that had pre-existing meanings instead of creating separate new ones for gender.

Imagine if they'd left man as the noun for male bodies and woman as the one for female bodies and instead defined brand new words for the genders, then focused the fight for trans awareness and trans rights into having those genders recognised as more important than sex for most people. That would have left the sex words as simply body descriptors for use in the medical, social and legal contexts where sex is relevant, which would hopefully become less and less over time.

You would already have exactly what you want!

And there'd be no such term as t*rf because feminists would have been fighting right beside TRAs, united in the aim of unloading sex from all the erroneous cultural weight it's been lumbered with.

No, it's because many trans women hate going to places that aren't explicitely trans friendly because of the discrimination they keep face in those locations.

You call it discrimination, we call it treating them the same as any male.

Can you name one single dating app, club, bar, women's group, etc, that is not targeted by transwomen?

None of them are 'targeted' by trans women. Women should be able to use any dating app, club, bar, women's group etcetera that they want to use, but unfortunately many don't feel welcome due to discrimination towards them on the basis of them being trans.

You call it discrimination, we call it treating them the same as any male.

Yes, that's discrimination, good job.

Yes, that's discrimination, good job

So women should let males into any space?

Imagine if they'd left man as the noun for male bodies and woman as the one for female bodies and instead defined brand new words for the genders, then focused the fight for trans awareness and trans rights into having those genders recognised as more important than sex for most people. That would have left the sex words as simply body descriptors for use in the medical, social and legal contexts where sex is relevant, which would hopefully become less and less over time.

What you're describing is the exact opposite of removing the trans label and instead slapping it as a tattoo on our forehead.

I am enjoying this discussion immensely. Please continue.

'There already isn't a single unifying word for people with two X chromosomes beyong the nominer of 'people with XX chromosomes' as that includes men and women that are and aren't trans.'

Ah.

So female/ male are out the window as well.

A major issue is recording and understanding the experiences of the female sex around the world. And seeing what issues there are and trying to make things better.

Of course this activity is undertaken by some big orgs and a lot of national/ local groups and individuals.

When oppressive situations exist whether by law or by custom, if they are oppressive to women and girls, the women and girls are identified by that outdated vulva/ no penis method.

The loss of any words to describe that group or even count them really does put a spanner in the works for activism etc.

Meanwhile nothing changes for them because everyone knows which type to treat in that way.