Debunking trans teen suicide stats

[33feethighandrising]

I've just got off the phone with DS's school, who are telling me that one of the reasons they have Allsorts in school, doing assemblies and one-to-ones with the children is that they have trans kids in the school and that if they don't support them they're at risk of suicide.

I asked her where she'd got that information from and she said it was a widely known fact.

Obviously, we all want to support troubled kids and there are many ways to support kids that aren't Allsorts, but just on the suicide stats, can anyone help me with this point?

I know I've read some thorough debunking of the suicide stats but I can't remember where now.

I'm thankful they're not telling the DC this at least (because of suicidal contagion) but it's informing their decision to work with Allsorts.

FWIW my problem with Allsorts in the school is that they're teaching the kids gender ideology as fact, e.g. saying that trans people are born trans and promoting transition as benign (their website says puberty blockers are harmless, FFS).

I think what they're doing is indoctrinating the children and leading them down a pathway that will end up with some of them on life long medication and possible surgery.

The head didn't accept any link between children being affirmed as trans by school and later going on to medical intervention.

You'll often see these links as presenting an alternative assessment:
lilymaynard.com/hyperbole-and-the-trans-suicide-myth/
www.transgendertrend.com/suicide-by-trans-identified-children-in-england-and-wales/

Bear in mind though that trans activists will dismiss those articles by declaring the organisation involved to be "transphobic".

FWIW my problem with Allsorts in the school is that they're teaching the kids gender ideology as fact, e.g. saying that trans people are born trans and promoting transition as benign (their website says puberty blockers are harmless, FFS).

You can tackle that and show that Allsorts are giving out incorrect information by pointing out that recently the NHS changed its view:

Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria.

Although GIDS advises this is a physically reversible treatment if stopped, it is not known what the psychological effects may be.

It's also not known whether hormone blockers affect the development of the teenage brain or children's bones. Side effects may also include hot flushes, fatigue and mood alterations.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

Of course, they could respond by declaring the NHS to be "transphobic" too.

The head didn't accept any link between children being affirmed as trans by school and later going on to medical intervention.

Was that said in the knowledge of the findings in the Keira Bell High Court case? If so, then I suspect you're dealing with someone coming from a faith-based position and they'll unthinkingly deny anything you say that doesn't fit in with that.

Even without debunking any stats, I would point out that if the school believes some of their pupils are suicidal or potentially suicidal then they should be referring to CAMHS. School staff do not have the expertise to intervene or provide any sort of psychological intervention.

So there was rampant child suicides up to now and noone noticed? Is that what they are saying?

I can honestly say that in all my years as school there were no suicides of my classmates.

One little boy was hit by a train in primary 1 but that was it.

@nauticant

FWIW my problem with Allsorts in the school is that they're teaching the kids gender ideology as fact, e.g. saying that trans people are born trans and promoting transition as benign (their website says puberty blockers are harmless, FFS).

You can tackle that and show that Allsorts are giving out incorrect information by pointing out that recently the NHS changed its view:

Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria.

Although GIDS advises this is a physically reversible treatment if stopped, it is not known what the psychological effects may be.

It's also not known whether hormone blockers affect the development of the teenage brain or children's bones. Side effects may also include hot flushes, fatigue and mood alterations.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

Of course, they could respond by declaring the NHS to be "transphobic" too.

Yes, I did that. I quoted the NHS and the DfE at them in the letter I sent.

They are unconcerned with anything to do with medical transition as they do not accept that having Allsorts in to do assemblies teaching ideology as fact, supporting children to be "their true selves" and referring them to Allsorts has anything at all to do with them undergoing medical transition at a later date.

The head does not accept that the rise in DC transitioning is because of social contagion, she thinks it's to do with a more accepting society.

@nauticant

The head didn't accept any link between children being affirmed as trans by school and later going on to medical intervention.

Was that said in the knowledge of the findings in the Keira Bell High Court case? If so, then I suspect you're dealing with someone coming from a faith-based position and they'll unthinkingly deny anything you say that doesn't fit in with that.

Yes, she obviously believes what she's being told, but I didn't get the impression she was a raging TRA.

I think you're right, though, her instinct is to deny what I say if it doesn't fit with the ideology.

If you read the Guardian, trust organisations like Stonewall and Amnesty to tell you the truth (as I once did!) then it's not hard to go along with this stuff. To realise it's all bollocks, you have to accept that organisations you once trusted are basically lying to you. I didn't expect to peak the school with one call, top be fair.

I'm just one lone voice and people they trust (e.g. Allsorts) are telling them there's no problem here.

This is the best debunking - it's by Michael Biggs of Oxford University:

www.transgendertrend.com/suicide-by-trans-identified-children-in-england-and-wales/

It looks like you're reconciled to not making any progress, at least in the short term. However, if you've provided reality-based materials that are in conflict with their faith-based beliefs, it might cause some cognitive dissonance which, in time, could lead them to examining their beliefs.

[quote RoyalCorgi]This is the best debunking - it's by Michael Biggs of Oxford University:

www.transgendertrend.com/suicide-by-trans-identified-children-in-england-and-wales/[/quote]
That's really useful, thank you.

@nauticant

You'll often see these links as presenting an alternative assessment: lilymaynard.com/hyperbole-and-the-trans-suicide-myth/ www.transgendertrend.com/suicide-by-trans-identified-children-in-england-and-wales/

Bear in mind though that trans activists will dismiss those articles by declaring the organisation involved to be "transphobic".

Thanks nauticant, this is great.

If we are a more 'accepting society' why then is transitioning not happening across all age ranges and both sexes in equal amounts? Is she saying that teenage girls and older men are more accepting than the rest of us?

Not re suicide, but I really like this piece by clinicians in Australia on their concerns that social transition before being seen by a gender identity clinic, creates a fixed mindset in children/adolescents, particularly section 5.2.

I think it’s quite a good piece to discourage schools to be neutral re gender ideology (not that it convinced my daughter’s school but I live in hope that someone will listen to it!)

journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/26344041211010777#.YIc_RaJBvsE.twitter

5.2. Conflation of gender affirmation and medical intervention

The second theme concerned the way in which the gender affirmative model—the dominant sociopolitical discourse—shaped the expectations of the children (and families) presenting to the service (see Section 4.2). It appeared to us that a large subgroup of children equated affirmation with medical intervention and appeared to believe that their distress would be completely alleviated if they pursued the pathway of medical treatment. Very often, we the clinicians felt that our efforts to work from a biopsychosocial perspective, along with our therapeutic efforts to discuss different aspects of the medical situation, fell on deaf ears. Lost were our efforts to highlight the many different pathways in which gender variation could be expressed, to explain potential adverse effects of medical treatment, to explore issues pertaining to future fertility and child rearing, and to highlight the importance of ongoing psychotherapy. With regard to the last item, we had a strong commitment to exploring issues of self and to helping the children both to understand the context in which their own distress (and potential mental health comorbidities) had arisen and to reflect, more generally, on their concerns, expectations, and future prospects. This same overall dynamic also put many parents—who were trying to support their children in a more holistic way but who were aware of potential long-term harms—in a difficult and untenable situation. The drivers of this dynamic appeared to include not simply the gender affirmative model itself but information from peers, previously encountered health workers, and the internet; many children arrived at the clinic with strongly entrenched beliefs and with no interest in further exploring their medical, psychological, social, or familial situation. It also became apparent to us that many children did not have the cognitive, psychological, or emotional capacity to understand the decisions they were making (see also Section 7).

fullfact.org/health/young-trans-people/

@toffeebutterpopcorn

So there was rampant child suicides up to now and noone noticed? Is that what they are saying?

I can honestly say that in all my years as school there were no suicides of my classmates.

One little boy was hit by a train in primary 1 but that was it.

Yes, wasn't it Arty Morty who asked there all the dead children were? Given that society wasn't generally affirming 'trans kids' until relatively recently.

I think the Trevour Foundation has links to stars that show it was a small group of transgender people who self declared for the survey. You could follow up some if the references this link
www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/preventing-suicide/facts-about-suicide/

Also contact Safe Schools Alliance and Transgender Trend about this. And browse their resources pages to help you write letters etc.
www.transgendertrend.com/
safeschoolsallianceuk.net/

It's worth pointing out that in lovely, progressive Sweden ( a country that has been at the forefront of trans rights for years) they had a 65% drop in referrals to gender clinics back in 2019.

There has been no corresponding spike in suicide. Pretty clear proof that transitioning children does not improve their mental or physical health.

genderreport.ca/the-swedish-u-turn-on-gender-transitioning/

[quote heathspeedwell]It's worth pointing out that in lovely, progressive Sweden ( a country that has been at the forefront of trans rights for years) they had a 65% drop in referrals to gender clinics back in 2019.

There has been no corresponding spike in suicide. Pretty clear proof that transitioning children does not improve their mental or physical health.

genderreport.ca/the-swedish-u-turn-on-gender-transitioning/[/quote]
That's a really interesting stat, I didn't know that thanks.

I think Finland has seen very similar results.

genderreport.ca/finland-strict-guidelines-for-treating-gender-dysphoria/

From a GIDS press release:

Tragically, there is a higher risk of self-harm and suicidal ideation or attempts found in LGBT communities compared to their cisgender or straight peers. Suicidality in young people attending the GIDS is similar to that of young people referred to child and adolescent mental health services. It is not helpful to suggest that suicidality is an inevitable part of this condition. Gender dysphoria is not a mental health condition in itself and we work hard with young people to ensure they can work out any issues they have around their gender identity while feeling supported. These might be internal issues around gender dysphoria, or external ones such as bullying or other adverse experiences they may have as a result of their gender identity. Our focus is on supporting young people to be resilient and positive and many of the young people we see are doing very well. It is important to note that it would be very unusual for younger children referred to the service to make suicidal attempts.

gids.nhs.uk/news-events/2018-10-15/our-response-full-itv-series-butterfly

Although it's GIDS and we know what they are like at collecting data 🤷‍♀️

Seriously, the sooner DfE and OFSTED denounce affirmation as a safeguarding issue the better. Adults are harming children, no matter their good intentions, and it needs to stop.

These might be internal issues around gender dysphoria, or external ones such as bullying or other adverse experiences they may have as a result of their gender identity.

Or it could be that the vast majority of their patients have multiple adverse childhood experiences (such as cse, neglect, mental health issues with parents etc), a generally chaotic lifestyle and/or they have autism, a condition which can high levels of mental health issues especially anxiety.

The sooner the authors of every report that is based on YouGov or similar survey data have to release a clear protocol and methodology the better.

Every one of these appalling assertions should be scrutinised before they're allowed onto MSM - and if they're known to be wrong then interviewers need to be challenging them.

We're all aware of the Samaritans guidance in this area - why aren't these spokespeople and MSM taking it to heart?