Would anyone mind if I ask a question about Robin Moria White?

[rabbitwoman]

I am sure she won't mind because she used to come here often to plug her book as the definitive guide to trans law.

I just wondered if it might need considerable editing after yesterday? As it will now have to take into account the judgement in Maya Forstater 's case?

Just to add, I had not read a huge amount about Maya. I had read Robin's piece in the independent and thought that it seemed maya was transphobic, and had behaved in a dreadful way.

But I have read all about it in the past few weeks and read the whole judgement yesterday and it's taken my breath away that Robin has not been even reprimanded for what she wrote. Why not?

www.google.com/search?q=robin+moira+white+forstater&oq=robin&aqs=chrome.0.69i59l3j69i57j69i60.2312j0j7&client=ms-android-vf-gb-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Swedish child psychiatrist, Sven Roman has compared the explosive growth in the number of cases of gender dysphoria to other psychiatric conditions, such as eating disorders and self-harm behaviour, that are known to spread with social contacts. He documents the process of discovery that the medical community went through to understand how to best treat these kinds of conditions. Over the past decade, he says research has proven that supportive psychotherapy can reduce or stop self-harm behaviour within 3 months. Of the avalanche of gender dysphoria cases being referred, he says:

Unlike the epidemic of self-harm behavior, (gender dysphoria) care providers are not exploring to find the right treatment. Instead, on a broad front, drastic treatment with high doses of sex hormones and breast and genital surgery is introduced. This despite the lack of any scientific evidence for these treatments for children, and probably not for young adults either.

In the fall of 2019, there was a 65% decline in the number of referrals to gender clinics in Sweden. This corresponded with experts calling on the government to review clinical protocols and more balanced media coverage of the phenomenon of regret among gender transitioners...

^(likelihood of male to female trans child increases with mother’s number of previous male pregnancies)^

As far as I’m aware, there’s research on this in relation to male homosexuality. Can you link to the research on this for “MTF trans child” please, Robin?

Are you sure you’re not confusing male homosexuality with MTF trans children? Is there research that shows both? Would being MTF trans then be the same thing as being a gay man, or are these different mechanisms in pregnant women who have had several previous male pregnancies?

I believe there's certainly been research saying that for homosexuality. And historically MTF transsexuals were predominantly homosexual.

So obviously you would expect to see homosexual MTF transsexuals increase along with other male homosexuals.

The interesting question is whether there is detectable correlation with heterosexual MTF transsexuals. I'm extremely doubtful there would be.

Homosexuality seems innate - it appears to be more like "gender identity" than what genderologists call "gender identity". I'm doubt there's anything significantly innate to "trans", having controlled for homosexuality.

“Transgender is an umbrella term that describes a diverse group of people whose internal sense of gender is different than that which they were assigned at birth. Transgender refers to gender identity and gender expression, and has nothing to do with sexual orientation. The term is increasing in familiarity globally, although other culturally specific terms may be used to describe people who have non-binary gender identities.”

www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/health-determinants/gender/gender-definitions/whoeurope-brief-transgender-health-in-the-context-of-icd-11

We seem to be veering waaaay off topic.

Has Robin disappeared again, not answering Qs asked?

That's disappointing. But not unexpected.

@TheShadowyFeminist

We seem to be veering waaaay off topic.

Has Robin disappeared again, not answering Qs asked?

That's disappointing. But not unexpected.

I think Robin won't answer any questions unless we've read the book and as clearly I'm not going to do that it's a bit of an impasse.

These definitions and the current WHO classification comes after decades of scientific study and biological fact finding. Currently gender incongruence is classified as condition of sexual health.

“ICD-11 has redefined gender identity-related health, replacing diagnostic categories like ICD-10’s “transsexualism” and “gender identity disorder of children” with “gender incongruence of adolescence and adulthood” and “gender incongruence of childhood”, respectively. Gender incongruence has thus broadly been moved out of the “Mental and behavioural disorders” chapter and into the new “Conditions related to sexual health” chapter. This reflects evidence that trans-related and gender diverse identities are not conditions of mental ill health, and classifying them as such can cause enormous stigma. Inclusion of gender incongruence in the ICD should ensure transgender people’s access to gender-affirming health care, as well as adequate health insurance coverage for such services.”

https://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/health-determinants/gender/gender-definitions/whoeurope-brief-transgender-health-in-the-context-of-icd-111_

“Comprehensive and intersectional gender analysis has influenced the interpretation of rights recognized in international human rights law, and many States have adopted gender as a key concept in laws and policies aimed at protecting women and LGBT persons against violence and discrimination. Nevertheless, within multilateral and regional organisations, among other fora, there are currently narratives that, under different lines of characterization (including the accusation of so-called “gender ideology”), seek to eliminate the gender framework from international human rights law instruments and processes, and national legislative and policy documents. These attempts could impact progress achieved over the last four decades on gender equality and the recognition of sexual and gender-based violence and violence and discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity.”

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/SexualOrientationGender/Pages/GenderTheory.aspx?fbclid=IwAR1nAV2fFt5NzZHkwGijZtPiNYhGRR_r8smajpAFM5VPR8LJmUvQsyzH-lY

Nah, it’s all just empty and long words. Call a spade a spade and stop hiding behind all the babble. A male is not a female, end of.

Why are you trying so hard to derail the thread horsespirit?

@irresistibleoverwhelm

^(likelihood of male to female trans child increases with mother’s number of previous male pregnancies)^

As far as I’m aware, there’s research on this in relation to male homosexuality. Can you link to the research on this for “MTF trans child” please, Robin?

Are you sure you’re not confusing male homosexuality with MTF trans children? Is there research that shows both? Would being MTF trans then be the same thing as being a gay man, or are these different mechanisms in pregnant women who have had several previous male pregnancies?

That was the claim (among others) that led me to make my comment about the book not being footnoted.

In fact one of the dangers of not footnoting is that you can be in danger of committing plagiarism if you have used someone else’s words without referencing them.

Quite a worry that Robin, as a lawyer, has either a) used claims that can’t be referenced (because the claims are false), or, b) has made the deliberate choice to ‘dumb-down’ the law to this extent by not referencing claims/critiquing the studies.

Transgender is an umbrella term that describes a diverse group of people whose internal sense of gender is different than that which they were assigned at birth.

Can you meet this definition of trans if
A) you have no gender recorded at birth, and/or
B) you have no sense of gender?

Horsespirit signed up to Mumsnet and entered the thread last night to say had read RMWs book on transgender law including the chapter on gender critical views.

I'd love to actually read what he or she thinks about that chapter in a bit more detail, rather than these diversions.

Could you tell us a bit more about the book and article this thread is about please?

I think Robin won't answer any questions unless we've read the book and as clearly I'm not going to do that it's a bit of an impasse

The independent article was mentioned and we've all read that though..... Its so rare for a writer to appear in a thread dissing their article in the nationals, it would be great if we could benefit from the visit in some way not be deterred from talking about it by Robin's presence, as am sure that was never the intention
So Robin what do you think of the upthread comments about your article?

I would really know how this effects the Allison Bailley trial. Especially as Robin has been contacting her on twitter - why is that allowed? I think as the crux of Allison 's case basically amounts to a smear campaign / harassment from Stonewall be really interested to see what the judgment will say about ribin' s conduct?

I think Robin will be released from the case long before Allison's case gets to trial.

Although, both Stonewall and Robin seem to think they are operating under some other legal system, so perhaps it's a match made in heaven and they'll carry on together in perfect harmony. Or maybe one is, in fact, the other?

Oh I really hope not. I would love to know what she says.

Firstly Stonewall are going to have to explain their position on THE LGB Alliance - been given charitable status. Then that was challenged, the charities commission scrutinised thrm further and they retained their status.

How are Stonewall going to explain exactly what their problem with the LGB Alliance is?

Naomi Cunningham has reviewed Robin’s book.
legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/09/02/a-practical-guide/

That's a pretty comprehensive and evidenced drubbing. I note this from the conclusion:

If a pair of guides on a difficult mountain path were as consistently flummoxed as the authors of this book, their clients would be saying their prayers

Thank you empress
the book is equally disappointing in almost all matters of substance.
the book suffers from a pervasive tendentiousness, coupled with legal analysis that is either weak or simply absent.
There’s a sleight of hand here – whether conscious or not

Heehehehehe.

That's all, really. (Although no, I'll add that the 'alive/dead binary' in the review is genius, and the attempted callous argument on the part of stellar legal mind White that deliberately deceiving a rape victim is even something to consider is utterly reprehensible.)

This reminds me of the maxim my old Dad used to live by "If you don't know the answer, make it up."
It's an unusual approach in a legal book though.

@FloralBunting

Heehehehehe.

That's all, really. (Although no, I'll add that the 'alive/dead binary' in the review is genius, and the attempted callous argument on the part of stellar legal mind White that deliberately deceiving a rape victim is even something to consider is utterly reprehensible.)

It's difficult to believe.

Deliberately deceiving a rape victim for the benefit of the trans counsellor?

I thought this book was meant to help advocate for trans people, not paint them in as bad a light as possible.

I’ve been waiting/hoping that this book would be reviewed by someone like Naomi Cunningham. Well done Naomi.

i note the the ‘book is poorly proof-read, with minor errors sprinkled throughout the text and one instance where a section of nearly a page and a half appears in two different place.’

I mean, if you can’t get the basics and simple attention to detail right then what hope does that give for the content?!

I dislike Robin immensely.

“Pervasive tendentiousness” is my new favourite phrase