Would anyone mind if I ask a question about Robin Moria White?

[rabbitwoman]

I am sure she won't mind because she used to come here often to plug her book as the definitive guide to trans law.

I just wondered if it might need considerable editing after yesterday? As it will now have to take into account the judgement in Maya Forstater 's case?

Just to add, I had not read a huge amount about Maya. I had read Robin's piece in the independent and thought that it seemed maya was transphobic, and had behaved in a dreadful way.

But I have read all about it in the past few weeks and read the whole judgement yesterday and it's taken my breath away that Robin has not been even reprimanded for what she wrote. Why not?

www.google.com/search?q=robin+moira+white+forstater&oq=robin&aqs=chrome.0.69i59l3j69i57j69i60.2312j0j7&client=ms-android-vf-gb-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Imagine how it feels for trans widows.

YY gaslighting.

I also think there are going to be many other celebrities speaking out about this now. Jonathan Ross to start with.

I think more people speaking up are going to inform politicians about what actually is popular opinion and they are going to start representing those opinions more accurately - hopefully that might mean a whole new cast of politicians coming forwards rather than letting Lisa nandy, keir starmer, etc pretend they never marginalised us in the first place.

I think this started off with Stonewall et al scaring us into not providing evidence at all; then pretending that evidence does not exist; then undermining the integrity of any evidence.... What I don't get

I did used to wonder why, when faced with Karen White or JY, they would try any tactic of not engaging rather than trying to move forward with a solution.

Evidence is evidence. Not proof.

To prove anything you have to examine the evidence. So now I know the impact of no debate....

@TinselAngel

In honesty, it even causes me deep distress and offence to use a female first name for someone I know to be male

Imagine how it feels for trans widows.

God, yes.

As always, your voices and experiences are so utterly marginalised in this “debate”, while those of your ex partners are so often elevated to sacred caste status - yet another example of blatant misogyny IMO.

#IStandWithTransWidows

The TRAs always (with a slight delay) take our arguements and rehash them. It's Darvo,. Which in massive twist of irony is an accusation they also appropriated and turned on us.

So true.

Extremist TRAs will try to appropriate everything women have. It gives them a kick to do so.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Extremist TRAs will try to appropriate everything women have. It gives them a kick to do so.

OT, I attended a WHRC webinar yesterday and there's a very disturbing clip that was shown by a woman in Brazil.

I'm in 2 minds about whether it should or can be retained - it's possibly violating some upload T&Cs without a warning.

But, let's just say that people had announced their intention to use a women's public rest room (whatever they're termed there) and one individual chose to selfie-film the act that was taking place in public, in front of a mirror.

It seems to be a particular take on taking ownership of a space.

[quote Waitwhat23]@Sophoclesthefox your mentioning 'happy to be part of her human shield' made me think of the last Harry Potter book, when during the Battle of Hogwarts, a character points at Harry and shouts 'There he is! Hand him over!' (Slight paraphrase by me) and rows and rows of students stand up to provide a protective barrier and to show their support of him. I feel like that - happy to hold the line.[/quote]
That’s pretty much how I imagine it

Solidarity and strength in numbers. We’ve got her back.

@KimThomas

Purgatory That is such a good demolition of the “rights aren’t pie” argument. I have lots of examples I use myself, but yours is perfect! Might nick.

Feel free! I find the simplification of "rights aren't pie" very distasteful, because it's so counterproductive to any kind of discussion about balancing people's rights going forward.

@TinselAngel

In honesty, it even causes me deep distress and offence to use a female first name for someone I know to be male

Imagine how it feels for trans widows.

And their children.

childrenoftransitioners.org/

Please do not tell me that you have just compared "watchful waiting" to barbaric practices of torture, surely no one is that clueless.

www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/torture/

I am actually quite sickened by that, I really am. I actually won't say more as my feet wouldn't touch the floor as MNHQ kicked me out.

@AfternoonToffee

I am actually quite sickened by that, I really am. I actually won't say more as my feet wouldn't touch the floor as MNHQ kicked me out.

You aren't the only one.

🤐

@AfternoonToffee

I am actually quite sickened by that, I really am. I actually won't say more as my feet wouldn't touch the floor as MNHQ kicked me out.

Yup

Posters like horse provide such insight for lurkers.

Given that it was made crystal clear in the Bell case that over 85% of gender-confused children desist if given the benefit of a watchful waiting approach, how exactly can you tell which child is a 'trans child' horsespirit ?

The sheer fucking over-privileged brass neck of that is breath-taking. It's also horseSOMETHING, right enough.

I'm appalled as well. Every time I think I have a handle on the sheer privilege and insularity that typifies trans activists online, I see another example that seems to beat all previous examples.

horsespirit, go to this site and get a grip on your first-world attitudes. www.freedomfromtorture.org/

I'll be making a donation to them today in honour of your foolish post, because I think good should come out of bad. I recommend other people do the same.

@heathspeedwell

Given that it was made crystal clear in the Bell case that over 85% of gender-confused children desist if given the benefit of a watchful waiting approach, how exactly can you tell which child is a 'trans child' horsespirit ?

But that dististance statistics is a myth.

“Short-term outcomes of pubertal suppression in a selected cohort of 12 to 15 year old young people with persistent gender dysphoria in the UK’”, reports on the cohort of 44 young people enrolled in the study between 2011 and 2014. The study also evaluated the efficacy of treatment and considered the persistence of gender dysphoria and decisions about future treatment. This study showed that overall patient experience of changes on gonadotropin releasing hormone analogues (GnRHa) treatment (commonly called ‘puberty blockers’) was positive and there were no unexpected adverse events.

All patients achieved and maintained suppression of pubertal hormones and none experienced pubertal progression. At the end of the study, 43 (98%) chose to start cross-sex hormones whilst one young person chose to stop GnRHa and continue with puberty consistent with their birth-registered sex.

Good suggestion Purgatory.

Glad to see that post by horse has been deleted.

So the desistance figures for watchful waiting and puberty blocker treated cohorts are different? How enlightening. In other news, an apple is not an orange. Or a xylophone.

horsespirit are you aware that you haven't even attempted to explain where your daft, out of date quote comes from?

Even in the Netherlands where the Dutch protocol of affirmation emerged they now don't recommend it for ROGD kids.

And in progressive countries like Sweden, Finland and the UK, we all know that the outcome of puberty blockers is far from 'positive' and there are, in fact a range of adverse events. This is why their use is being heavily restricted in all these places and a watchful waiting approach is recommended.

Are you seriously attempting to compare the evidence-led actions of various progressive countries to conversion therapy and torture?

At the end of the study, 43 (98%) chose to start cross-sex hormones whilst one young person chose to stop GnRHa and continue with puberty consistent with their birth-registered sex.

All that shows is that starting on GnRHa treatment during puberty leads almost inevitably to cross sex hormones. Which is why consent for both would be required before children are started on GnRHa treatment. What do you think it shows?

In the Keira Bell case the court decided that children under 16 weren't capable of consenting to such treatment.

I know if you live in Surrey or the Home Counties that there is a good chance you will support the likes of Truss and Boriset.albut, if not, ask yourself, what do their plans mean for you?

How out of touch is it possible to be?

www.spiked-online.com/2021/06/11/the-rise-of-multi-ethnic-conservativism/?utm_source=spiked+long-reads&utm_campaign=fe96f131de-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2021_06_13_08_40&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_9dfa8b2a91-fe96f131de-99389362

This explains why Sweden officially ended the use of puberty blockers in May 2021.

genderreport.ca/the-swedish-u-turn-on-gender-transitioning/