Heads up: MNHQ planning to create a sex/gender topic separate from FWR.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/4267223-Any-chance-of-a-review-of-the-FWR-moderation-rules-in-light-of-Maya-Forstaters-success-in-court-please?pg=1

We also think now might be the time to consider a reshuffle of the topics in the Feminism board. Feminism and feminist organising has always been a crucial part of Mumsnet and we want all Mumsnet users to feel they can use these boards to discuss the hundreds of ways in which sex - and gender roles - impact on women’s lives, irrespective of their views on sex and gender. So we’d like to introduce a separate topic for Sex and Gender issues and at the same time streamline some of the other topics under the FWR umbrella (some of which are rarely used).

As I said on the linked thread, I thought sex/gender was the basis of feminism and therefore a bit odd to split it off.

Blibbyblobby 👏

@Tibtom

So what goes under sex and gender? And how does discussion of these topics differ from women's rights? We couldn't, for example, talk about women's health without acknowledging what a woman is or how language like 'person with...' undermines that healthcare. We cannot discuss violence against women and girls without aknowlwdging where that violence comes from and the need for safe spaces away from men/males. We can't talk about getting increasing women's leadership roles without acknowleding the gendered assumptions and toys that stop women progressing and on them being kind instead. We can't talk about discrimination in the work place without talking about what that is based on (sex) and the negative impacts of women having or assumed they might have children, of the need for measure to counteract the impact of our biology and how declaring our sex in emails (pronouns) can be harmful.

I can't think of one area of women's rights that is not impacted by our sex and negatively impacted by gender ideology.

Agree. Sex and gender roles are at the heart of feminism. It is liking having a religious section and then a separate section on God.

This is a stupid idea. You can't separate out bits of things that affect women

I'm GC and I honestly don't see the problem with this. The whole of MN is surely already separated out into different bits of things that affect (largely) women. And within most of the topic areas there are further divisions into smaller bits. The feminism section itself is already divided into separate bits.

Saying 'But how can you discuss feminism without mentioning sex?' is disingenuous imo. Having a 'sex and gender' subsection would mean having a section specifically devoted to the debate over gender identity and biological sex, it wouldn't mean that referring to sex or anything pertaining to what sex you are would be verboten in the rest of the feminism section!

Is it really too difficult to ignore posters that aren't responding in a way you'd like and simply reply to those who are? Whilst also reporting any posts that go too far to MNHQ?

Maybe introducing a block button would help?

It might lead to the weirdness of a single thread appearing to be part of several parallel universes - but that feels more feasible that what is being outlined here. Caveat: - again, it would be helpful if MNHQ were to provide some examples of what they're proposing and would outline the moderation policies.

Mumsnet itself is a feminist site simply by dint of women talking and helping each other deal with the stuff that crops up in women’s lives. You don’t need a soft, don’t scare the horses feminist discussion board because that’s already covered by the site as a whole. You need a this-isn’t-nice-but-it-hurts-us-and-it-needs-to-be-said feminist discussion board or it has no purpose.

I agree, I've made this point before when people have complained about the focus of Feminism chat/FWR. This whole website is feminist awareness raising. Issues such as pay gap, work/life balance, sexual harassment, domestic violence are discussed freely on other boards and do not get shunted off into specialist feminist areas.

I said no thanks on the other thread

Being a feminist drives a lot of this discussion to me and I don’t want it separated out

It would be interesting to see some polling on this. By established members (and by that I mean, those who have been members of the site as a whole for a while, not necessarily prolific posters, rather than those who have very recently signed up).

Are there really many posters who genuinely can't feel they can post in Feminism the way it is at the moment and who would use it if all the threads that mention sex as an issue were hived off elsewhere?

And I know it's not necessarily just a numbers game - but are there more of these than those who are happy to keep the board as it is?

It would make more sense to split off the smaller group, surely?

Not really no, posts on the LGBT boards are routinely hijacked. Using your analogy they shouldn't be, but there will always be a group of "rugby" fans who turn up.

Yet another example of women being shoved out of the way so it doesn't hurt the feelings of a tiny minority.

This is EXACTLY what we are fighting to prevent and if MN do this they are complicit in trying to hide us and keep us confined.

It is impossible to separate sex from gender in discussions because gender is being used against us as a sex class. Gender roles are force fed to us from birth.

I don't understand those whining about seeing these topics in FWR, which is about women's rights. Females as a sex class.
You do not have to open or read threads and are welcome to start threads on your chosen feminism topic. But telling us to move over because you don't like seeing us talking about something that is affecting the rights and protections of females globally? Because it doesn't impact you personally? No.

Despite all the malicious reporting of posters and complaints from genderists, this board has brought so much traffic to this site. Now you want us to go away and keep the noise down? Shame on you.

It looks to me as though we've gotten too big for our boots. Too much of our society is becoming aware of the sex v gender debate and as Denton's observed, if this is allowed to hit wider society, society will react. Society is now starting to react and every avenue we have at our disposal will probably be attacked.

This board has given voice to women, not just GC feminists, but ordinary women concerned about their and their children's lives and the how this debate affects them.

If MNHQ are keen to be inclusive, then why don't they just have another board that lib fems can utilise.

We are the ones driving back the advance of Stonewall Law and society is now listening. It's more like MNHQ were waiting for a moment like this to put a lid on our pesky ways.

I hope this will be a very carefully thought out move and not just a way of side-lining our debate. Keep records because resistance is not futile

@dolorsit

Well I for one, absolutely welcome your contributions Quaggers and I think you have made some excellent posts in AIBU.

Aw thank you

@Imasoulman

Not really no, posts on the LGBT boards are routinely hijacked. Using your analogy they shouldn't be, but there will always be a group of "rugby" fans who turn up.

What LGBT boards?

Never seen one, never posted on one. Just as I have never posted on any 'male' site.

My point was quite clear, you can pfaff around it if you choose to.

@Crispychillibeef

Thank fuck for that. I hate being told that my feelings on feminism are incorrect because I'm not scared of who uses our toilets.

I invoke Armitage Shanks Law. (In any discussion on the internet touching on trans matters somebody will always try and drag the discussion around to toilets).

What LGBT boards

They'll be referring to the LGBT board on MN I presume.

@TinselAngel 😆 so true!

Armitage Shanks Law 😁

Taking that one too!

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Armitage Shanks Law 😁

Taking that one too!

Please do! I'm trying to make it a thing

Well there you go. As someone already said, I don't intrude.

Like the BlackMNers board, I have nothing valid to add so I don't intrude.

@SoapboxFox

Why should sex be in the same topic as gender?

^^This.

Saying 'But how can you discuss feminism without mentioning sex?' is disingenuous imo. Having a 'sex and gender' subsection would mean having a section specifically devoted to the debate over gender identity and biological sex, it wouldn't mean that referring to sex or anything pertaining to what sex you are would be verboten in the rest of the feminism section!

The problem is that there are a lot of subjects which are not directly related to debating the gender identity/biological sex divide, but due to them being feminist issues they will naturally have some connection to that debate. Eg. Period poverty - like it or not it overlaps because for those on the more libfem end it is important to discuss it using language that doesn't exclude transmen, and for those on the radfem end it is more important to be sex specific in order not to conceal the underlying problem. So where does that sit? In the new subforum or not?

I agree that if you question the narrative on here you are accused on being a troll or a man.

It is impossible to separate gender debate from feminism, it is absolutely integral. The most pressing concern of our time. Societally imposed gender expectations or assumptions are the root of nearly all barriers to equality.

Name one topic in feminism that doesn't involve gender. This is a terrible idea Mumsnet.

Eg. Period poverty - like it or not it overlaps because for those on the more libfem end it is important to discuss it using language that doesn't exclude transmen, and for those on the radfem end it is more important to be sex specific in order not to conceal the underlying problem. So where does that sit? In the new subforum or not?

This. This is what happens on other boards, and in the resulting fracas, no-one talks about period poverty!

So cant we just talk about things like period poverty without getting into the transgender debate?
It just feels like everything else is ignored.

I'm sure you can. Start a thread, respond to posts that meet your requirements and ignore those that don't.