Heads up: MNHQ planning to create a sex/gender topic separate from FWR.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/4267223-Any-chance-of-a-review-of-the-FWR-moderation-rules-in-light-of-Maya-Forstaters-success-in-court-please?pg=1

We also think now might be the time to consider a reshuffle of the topics in the Feminism board. Feminism and feminist organising has always been a crucial part of Mumsnet and we want all Mumsnet users to feel they can use these boards to discuss the hundreds of ways in which sex - and gender roles - impact on women’s lives, irrespective of their views on sex and gender. So we’d like to introduce a separate topic for Sex and Gender issues and at the same time streamline some of the other topics under the FWR umbrella (some of which are rarely used).

As I said on the linked thread, I thought sex/gender was the basis of feminism and therefore a bit odd to split it off.

Yep. The Maya thread on AIBU, despite getting derailed, 1333 votes, 95% in favour of Maya last I looked.

Oddly nobody popped up and said "move this to Feminism" on that one.
Someone asleep on the thread-policing job?

95 out of 100 threads here are about gender identity. Any other subject disappears off the front page in very quick time and is forgotten. It would be nice to have a board where the five percent of threads could naturally attract more attention and not roll off the front page almost immediately.

I can't really see this as some sinister plot, it's just a logistical issue.

Orange just out of interest have you posted on any of the other subject threads?

It would be nice to have a board where the five percent of threads could naturally attract more attention and not roll off the front page almost immediately.
Then I suggest speaking to MNHQ and asking them to set up a new board for you.

What I really hate about the FWR board is the bloody obsession with women's rights! Can't we somehow make it a bit more welcoming to the people who just don't have the same bee in their bonnets? Maybe by making those threads a bit less visible, and foregrounding some nicer ones?

What I don’t understand about the FWR board is all this focus on women and girls, what about the men? They have feelings too you know.

(I know that's not what you're saying, Orange - but the point is that we talk here about what we think is really important within the subject of women's rights. Policing that, or making the threads that naturally get most engagement less visible, doesn't do anyone any favours.)

To be specific, If you go by the twitter monitoring that tweets the number of threads ‘dedicated’ to gender rarely pops above 30 out of 50. The number is updated every 12 hours. (Look under mumsnet keyword search on twitter). Many days it is under 25/50.

That leaves plenty of threads that are about general topics. Do you post on these?

@EndoplasmicReticulum

Yep. The Maya thread on AIBU, despite getting derailed, 1333 votes, 95% in favour of Maya last I looked.

Oddly nobody popped up and said "move this to Feminism" on that one.
Someone asleep on the thread-policing job?

And someone with a GRC, polite discussion. Agreed there's issues and Maya should have won her case to hold those views. I need to read the rest as it was good discussion when I last saw it.

Fucking moronic idea.

I really really hate this idea. Please don’t, MNHQ.

(Sorry I have not yet RTFT)

If the topics had been split as MN suggests when I first arrived on the feminism board, I’d never have discovered GC feminism or found ways to articulate the numb feeling of unease I had with social justice dogma, as a left wing feminist who bought into the whole be kind package. This board opened my eyes.

Please don’t split it off into competing branches of feminism. Divide and conquer is exactly what the anti-women activists want.

If this board is overrun with GC content, isn’t that just because it’s the most relevant current topic in women’s lives? There’s a rights land grab attempt going on. So far MN has held firm against the thought police. Please keep doing that, MNHQ.

Policing that, or making the threads that naturally get most engagement less visible, doesn't do anyone any favours.

I'm no longer in favour of dividing simply because a pp mentioned either here or in one of the other threads that it will make the more GC board a target and could easily get shut down since another feminist board would still be running (paraphrased).

However, even if this separation was to be done, I don't think it will make the threads you've mentioned less visible. On one hand, if the 'less fun' feminism discussions were to be given a new board, everyone who usually posts and reads will follow suit so you'd still get the same engagement if not more (since people will be freer to speak facts). On the other hand, if it was left where it is and the 'more fun brand of feminism' is given a new board, those who engage in the less fun ones would still stay where they are. So I fail to see how anyone is going to be hidden in any of this if it's done either way.

That said, I'm still in favour of keeping it as is for the reason mentioned. I believe that would surely happen at some point if the boards are separated.

@EndoplasmicReticulum

Orange just out of interest have you posted on any of the other subject threads?

I have indeed. I'm particularly interested in pay and career progression and always get involved when this comes up. The most recent thread on pay gap calculations was an extremely narrow focus however, it was only about gender identity so I didn't post, I would rather discuss the pay gap itself.

What I wish as someone who has tried, particulary after a thread about why is FWR not talking about "real" feminist interest, to post on a variety of women's issues that those who are complaining will comment.

Now it seems its everybody else fault for letting these minority interest posts fall off the front page.

Seriously? As someone who has occassionally started a duplicate thread, I usuallly make the effort to click on the handy button, next page, to see what might have been posted that I have missed. Just a tiny little hint if you can remember last time you came to FWR, lets say 10 June, surely it isn't beyond the thought process of anyone to think I will look back at what has been posted until I get to 10 June.

There is also the element that some have more time to post than others. There is life outside of FWR, eg work, family, taking a breather, so what might seem a disproportionate number of posts about gender critical feminism, is also a reflection of those who have more time to post.

So it really does seem to come down to, not what I suggested in an earlier post that somehow the mere existence of threads about women's sex based rights creates a hostile enviroment which makes other threads somehow contaminated, those who are complaining just cant be bothered to look - and in fact comment.

So yes please MNHQ, please create these fragile flowers a safe space. They can start all the threads they want on all the issues that they feel are being ignored. And that will then indicate if there is a need for this.

But what this doesn't do is do away with the fact that if you think the basis of discrimination and violence against women is because of their sex, it is likely that these safe space threads will get comments reflecting this.

So is it in fact that the suggestion to isolate off gender critical postings, is in fact a way of saying to those with gender critical views, please dont post?

What I really hate about the FWR board is the bloody obsession with women's rights! Can't we somehow make it a bit more welcoming to the people who just don't have the same bee in their bonnets? Maybe by making those threads a bit less visible, and foregrounding some nicer ones?

There is much lashing out at the moment by anti-woman activists who know that Mumsnet was and is vital in women getting together and fighting the war on our rights.

MN need to view any suggestions to hide or move the topic that most women here want to talk about and that most other mumsnetters support, through that lens. They should have learned after #EmmaGate

Mumsnet, you should be damn proud of this place.

So is it in fact that the suggestion to isolate off gender critical postings, is in fact a way of saying to those with gender critical views, please dont post?

Not here, but judging by the discourtesy that is frequently on display from some posters that adopt a combative stance in re: GC, I would doubt the instruction is couched as "please dont post" rather than as an imperative that they would wish to enforce by courtesy of a privileged/valorised status as a monitor of how women should discuss our experience and sex-based oppression.

Have now RTFT and still think separating the board into silos is a terrible idea. So many brilliant posts made on this thread explaining all the reasons why.

Now it seems its everybody else fault for letting these minority interest posts fall off the front page.

It's really not about blaming people.

It's simply a function of the software that the lower traffic threads drop off quickly and don't get noticed so much to keep the discussion going.

I'm not a fragile flower for understanding this!

Funny.

I have indeed. I'm particularly interested in pay and career progression and always get involved when this comes up. The most recent thread on pay gap calculations was an extremely narrow focus however, it was only about gender identity so I didn't post, I would rather discuss the pay gap itself.

I understand the frustration but over time pay gap data, like crime statistics, will become more and more useless as sex based recording is abandoned or fudged.

It only takes one senior, well paid man in a company to identify as a woman to skew the data of that company enormously.

How can progress be monitored when the basic data is flawed? The threat to data has to be talked about and tackled first.

I still can't see the rationale for moving out the threads that get the most traffic. Not on discussion grounds, not on business grounds.

It's simply a function of the software that the lower traffic threads drop off quickly and don't get noticed so much to keep the discussion going.

Likewise that the software doesn't identify that there are already one or more threads on a particular article/piece of news - so the discussion ends up fractured between threads.

@wanderinwomb what is EmmaGate?

[quote cakedays]@wanderinwomb what is EmmaGate?[/quote]
An intern at MN:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3388461-The-aftermath-of-the-intern-data-leak

I am tempted to ask MNHQ if we can please have a sub-section of AIBU for any discussion of what constitutes rudeness. it gets so tiresome and there are other things I want to discuss, for heaven's sake...