Misgendering - a more nuanced definition is needed?

[cheeseismydownfall]

I am really struggling with the concept of misgendering, following the blanket statement made by one of the interviewees on R4 this morning that "misgendering is wrong".

How can this be? If we accept that the Equalities Act allows for single sex provisions, and even to the extend of excluding those people who hold a GRC in certain circumstances, it follows that there may be occasions when 'misgendering' is required in order to correctly apply the law.

Take a few scenarios:

1. A transwoman going for a quiet coffee and being pointedly and repeatedly referred to using male pronouns by a member of staff. Transwoman politely requests the use of female pronouns instead. Member of staff laughs and continues to refer to the transwoman as male.

1. A transwoman using the female toilets in a workplace, despite the availability of unisex facilities and a multicultural diverse environment in which some women have previously stated that they are extremely uncomfortable with the idea of a male-bodied person entering the female-only space.

1. Requesting assistance with a fitting for a first bra for a young teenage girl, and discovering that this service is being provided by a transwoman.

No-one but a complete dick would think the first scenario is OK. Bullying and humiliating someone like this would be a despicable act, and (in my mind) this is what #bekind was supposed to be about - and would have been better coined as #don'tbeanarse

But what about scenarios 2 and 3, where the women and girls involved have their own feelings which are also valid? How can it be wrong for a woman to express her discomfort in these circumstances?

I guess I am frustrated because whenever the term 'misgendering' is used, I think people assume that the context is something akin to the first scenario, and that women are just being mean. I think there needs to be some clearer distinction made around deliberate, unnecessary 'misgendering' and a woman's right to query if her sex-based rights are being compromised. A single term is not adequate, surely?

Pronouns being related to sex is a social convention not a belief.

We could all agree to change this to gender related pronouns, which would mean everyone stating and remembering everyone else's choice, and using their preferred pronouns. And lots of people are suggesting and like this idea.

The problem is they are trying to force this idea and a new convention on other people and use legal force to do so.

The legal position to defend is compelled speech.
You cannot make me say things I do not want to.

You can argue round and round which idea is best/ right idea, but bottom line is no one has the right to force others to say things they do not want to.

This is a much more basic and fundemental right to defend than the current social convention.
But it is necessary in order for you to do that too, and defend anything else you think is important.

The trans issue made me realise free speech is not just a nice idea it is fundemental to all autonomy.

I don't believe misgendering is a thing, I believe pronouns relate to sex. Why should I potentially have to - under the law - call a male 'she/her'? It goes directly against my GC beliefs.

I will use whatever name a person chooses for themselves and at work would try to avoid 3rd person pronouns altogether, but I surely cannot be compelled to participate in the lie that a male can be a 'she'?

100% my position and I have never called a male "she". I just avoid using pronouns.

Pronouns being related to sex is meaningful language. Changing their use because some people want to uncouple 'woman' from 'female' in order to further control women is 1984 brought to life.

3. Requesting assistance with a fitting for a first bra for a young teenage girl, and discovering that this service is being provided by a transwoman.

What is your fear here? The trans person will somehow get off on it? Get real.

There doesn't need to be any "fear". It's a simple matter of privacy and dignity.

@RainingZen

Yes I agree. I misgendered someone's son in the park recently. My own son had assumed the child was a girl, and we both kept talking about waiting for the little girl to have a turn first, and saying, "she likes the slide, doesn't she? Are you going to follow her down?" He was wearing gender neutral clothes, and had beautiful long blonde hair and a very feminine face. But, turns out he was a boy. I felt embarrassed. But is that now a crime?

I think misgendering should be closely defined as deliberately referring to someone in the opposite gender with an understanding that this will cause avoidable embarrassment or distress, when you have previously been made aware the person has made a request to be identified as a different gender.

This made me laugh. My 1 year old has blonde curly hair every so many people think he's a girl. I don't really care though - just shows how cute he is! XD

3. Requesting assistance with a fitting for a first bra for a young teenage girl, and discovering that this service is being provided by a transwoman.

What is your fear here? The trans person will somehow get off on it? Get real.

You think that's an okay situation where the girl is expecting someone of the same sex as her?

Your expectation of trampling over female boundaries is horrific.

More seriously, I cannot bring myself to describe a man as she/her. I just can't.

And given that I have grown up seeing men wear makeup or dresses when they want to, and around butch lesbians, I am not going to change.

I will use the name someone wants and be polite, but that's it.

@Cabinfever10

Are they going to have a disability exemption for people with ASD like my son who can't lie about these things or will he still risk a criminal record?

I have autism and this is one of my genuine concerns; that I will get into trouble for essentially not buying into something that is a lie.

I cannot lie. I say what I see. Black and white thinking.

Also, by accepting misgendering as being a real thing, means I'd have to buy into the whole gender concept and I can't as it's just made up bollocks.

I dread the day that someone accuses me of misgendering as my urge to respond 'ODOFD' will be overwhelming.

It makes me thankful for the pandemic and enforced working from home. The less people I'm around, the less chance I have of putting my foot in it. Every cloud has a silver lining!

Thing is, lots of us get misgendered a lot. It's not a phenomenon exclusive to trans people. I've been called mate, sir, he dozens of times. Sometimes people realise and correct themselves but often they don't. I have short hair and wear fairly masculine clothes. The only difference is that I'm not sensitive to the misperception. The only time it really bothered me was at a Pride event when someone from Mermaids heavily implied I was trans.

what about 'misgendering' because you think gender is BS and you don't want to compromise your own sense of integrity by pretending?

Agree - I would not want to wilfully offend and so my solution is - out of courtesy- I would try NOT to use a persons pronouns at all.

It it against my sense of self and my biological reality to call a male a she. To force me to say otherwise is ‘misgendering’ me because I don’t think gender is a thing and denies my sex based reality. That is harassment.

And yes - there are circumstances - ensuring the equality act and single sex spaces at work, sport, hospitals, prisons, refuges etc. when stating sex-based reality and he/him IS vital.

@Fieldofgreycorn

other races in their bathrooms (bad!)

Careful. You will be accused of implying women of other races are not women.

or people who smell funny (also bad) - do they have the right to insist they use a different facility?

Or implying a woman who has a smell problem is not a woman. (Of course they can use the female toilets because they’re female!)

3. Requesting assistance with a fitting for a first bra for a young teenage girl, and discovering that this service is being provided by a transwoman.

There are exemptions for personal services, should an organisation wish to use them. So women can of course wish to be fitted by a female person.

I think the issue is what counts as ‘proportionate’ and ‘legitimate’. I don’t think stopping transitioned trans women from using the women’s toilets would be seen as either proportionate or legitimate by most women. Or most of society. Other things... not so sure. Eg sport/ fairness.

Why should any transwomen use the women’s loos ? “Transitioned “ can mean almost anything, very few transwomen have genital surgery. I think most women would very much not want a male person with a penis using the Ladies along with their Twelve year old dd.

It's a little off-topic, but

On the issue of 'politeness', this is where I am willing to compromise. I am GC and I would honestly personally prefer not refer to anyone using pronouns that are at odds with their biological sex. But on balance I would prefer to be polite over being 'right', and would not attempt to exercise (what may now be my legal right) to practice my own beliefs to the extent of upsetting someone else. But that should remain my choice.

I agree with this. It actually really sticks in my craw when GC feminists insist on 'he' when referring to self-identified transwomen who have made their pronoun preferences clear, because the GC position that I most often hear quoted is 'everyone can dress how you like, call yourself whatever you like, live how you like, but in a small number of cases there's a sex-based conflict of rights and needs and that matters'. Calling someone Jane when they were born James, or indeed her when they were born him, doesn't inflict on anyone else's rights, and I think it would behoove GC feminists to let that battle slide in the interests of winning the war.

I do genuinely see how it is problematic though in some cases. Using sentences like 'his ovaries' or 'her penis' are a headfuck. And it's often used as a 'gotcha', as this Tweet identifies.

@JellySlice

If my right not to believe that a male can be a woman is protected, why should my speech be compelled to declare that a male is a woman?

It is a good judgement, but still fuzzy - just like everything to do with 'gender reassignment'.

You've articulated something that has been floating around my brain unformed for a while. Thanks. One of the reasons I love this board.

quim yes it's good to try and be polite but I'm concerned that if I get it wrong there'll be consequences. I struggle enough with names when I first meet people. Pronouns have added a whole new layer of social complexity that I fear will affect the confidence of women like me thus leading us to be quieter. Similar to the quiet voice being drowned out by big personalities. If you're brash you get your way, if you're shy you get trodden on.

I took 'call yourself what you like'' to mean use whatever name you like, not insist the language everyone uses is changed for your personal benefit.

My default response to confusion is silence. So my response to the stress of dealing with conflicting information is going to be saying nothing. Its not a microaggression.

The Stroop Effect explains that words become associated with their meanings;
www.math.unt.edu/~tam/SelfTests/StroopEffects.html

or indeed her when they were born him, doesn't inflict on anyone else's rights,

I disagree. Pronouns are sex based. If I have to, I simply avoid them.

took 'call yourself what you like'' to mean use whatever name you like, not insist the language everyone uses is changed for your personal benefit.

Exactly. People can prefer whatever they like but where does it end? Even transactivists often slip up on they/them pronouns. I see it as a control issue.

I do genuinely see how it is problematic though in some cases. Using sentences like 'his ovaries' or 'her penis' are a headfuck. And it's often used as a 'gotcha', as this Tweet identifies.

Yes. So you have limits to your patience with this language mangling. So do other women. They're not all the same limits.

See the Scottish Hate Crime bill.

Can you imagine this.

Burglary case crimes to court

Prosecution: Ms Jones your DNA was found at the scene

Jones: No you found male DNA and I'm a woman so it can't be mine unless you are misgendering me.

@AdaFuckingShelby Yes, there should never be allowed to be legal ramifications for accidental failure to be polite. Especially when someone has just transitioned - I was speaking with a friend about Elliot Page recently and had to exert a huge amount of mental effort to keep saying 'he' - he wasn't in the room obviously and wouldn't know or care what I said so it wasn't important but it was just surprisingly mentally taxing when it's someone you've known as 'she' for years, even when they're just someone you know from a distance. If it were a person I'd known directly, or someone I'd just met whose gender was ambiguous, I'd expect sympathy as I adjusted to their preferences. And frankly, I'd expect some gratitude for my willingness to make those adjustments.

I see it as a control issue.

This. I grew up with three older brothers that would use anything at all as a stick to beat me with, so maybe I'm hypersensitive to this, but compelled pronouns puts anyone who doesn't want to use them on the defensive, and gives anyone around who has some axe to grind a means to make their life harder. How is it not a hostile work environment if you have to police the pronouns you use, especially if you have coworkers who might make a fuss about it, and possibly report you to superiors? Even those who are on board with neo pronouns could have their inevitable mistakes turned against them by a not-so-well meaning co-worker. Isn't working life stressful enough?

When are people who don't buy gender ideology, and for whom pretending to do so damages our sense of integrity, going to be allowed to feel "safe" at work?

On the issue of 'politeness', this is where I am willing to compromise. I am GC and I would honestly personally prefer not refer to anyone using pronouns that are at odds with their biological sex. But on balance I would prefer to be polite over being 'right', and would not attempt to exercise (what may now be my legal right) to practice my own beliefs to the extent of upsetting someone else. But that should remain my choice.

I'm with Magdalen Berns on this. Though the truth is that I'm not as brave as her. Under certain circumstances I end up avoiding any pronouns or sticking with 3rd person plural.

I have autism spectrum disorder and would find it incredibly difficult to call someone I saw as male "she" or "her". It's just not true and the lie would stick in my throat.

Luckily I don't work anymore so it's unlikely to ever come up, and I'm easily able to avoid talking to anyone likely to create about pronouns. But I imagine it must be extremely difficult for people in other circumstances.

In Scotland though, part of their definition of woman is “being described by others in written or other communication using female language.” so by having to call a male, she/her you are assisting something you might not agree with. (I probably haven’t worded that well enough but hopefully you understand what I’m trying to say)

Please correct me if I'm wrong but i don't believe it is a crime to mis gender someone. Furthermore, you seam to be confusing mis gendering with something else. Only your first example would be mis gendering, as it is referring to someone with a pronoun or form of address that doesn't reflect their gender.
Hope this clears things up.