Maya R4 now

[TedImgoingmad]

Barroness Faulkner of EHRC!

Saying she welcomes the judgment.

Ruling nothing new. Clarifies the existing law under EQA 2010.

Impact on transpeople on workplace. Listening to clip from Helen Belcher. Imagine working in environment questioning your right to be there (e.g. in toilet).

BF - yes Trans people rights are protected at work, because you cannot harass. You can both hold a belief and be held to account if you harass.

'If you are a trans person, can you see how being in a workplace with a colleague who holds views like that...'

Views like what? That sex is a biological reality? I think MH's soft, slightly offended tone is pointing listeners towards the conclusion that feminists are just being needlessly mean.

That was quite disappointing. I felt that BH was a bit out of her depth.

'Misgendering someone is wrong.' No. Why should women be forced to say that biological males are women? We shouldn't.

What about just being in the workplace with someone who holds GC views? Isn't that horrible for transpeople?

BF - if a trans person feels their rights are not being upheld and that they are being harassed, then escalate it at work. The3 ruling is not licence to behave badly.

Do you share Maya's belief that transwomen are male?

BF - I accept that it would be hurtful for a transperson, and the law protects them on grounds of gender reassignment. I am not commenting on Maya's views. Her views are protected. Holding a view comes with an obligation to treat others with respect and as an equal human being. That's the key to it.

My view: More of radio 4 trying to turn this into kindness and hurty feels, and intimating that anyone with a belief that might hurt your feelings should be out of employment.

I really wish these interviewers would take the time to clarify the basics. Like what 'views like that' really are. Like the definition of 'trans'. There's a lot of pussyfooting around. That said, at least the subject is finally getting airtime. Still raises my blood pressure when biology is described as a 'belief' but that's an argument for another day.

All about the trans, as usual. I’ve heard there are another group of people, roughly half the population in fact, who are seriously affected by these issues. Anybody remember who they are? I’ve forgotten because nobody ever mentions them, only the trans.

I think she was blind sided by the question whether she agreed with Maya, and them (BBC) trying to turn this into feelings versus facts.

I was disappointed in this interview too, and have commented on the other thread. This is all being framed as being about transwomens feelings and perceived right not to have them hurt.

@Sofuckingsad

I really wish these interviewers would take the time to clarify the basics. Like what 'views like that' really are. Like the definition of 'trans'. There's a lot of pussyfooting around. That said, at least the subject is finally getting airtime. Still raises my blood pressure when biology is described as a 'belief' but that's an argument for another day.

Yesterday's BBC reports, including the TV News at Ten repeatedly used the wording 'a woman who claimed people can't change biological sex'. 'Claimed', not 'stated'. On the basic facts of life.

It was a disappointing interview

'nothing new here' is important - it has always been illegal to discriminate on the basis of gender critical beliefs. If those with these beliefs felt harassed or were sack, discriminated or no platformed then that is illegal discrimination. What is more the public sector equality duty places an obligation to build positive relationship between those without the belief and those with it.

I haven't listened but I will and I will complain about the coverage (or lack thereof).

www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints

It's the only way to even attempt change...that and writing to the BBC using the sex matters template

And the public enquiry one

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/leave-stonewall/

sex-matters.org/take-action/sign-our-letter/

Please, where you can, complain to the BBC about the way this is being framed.

I listened. It was quite extraordinary. Initially I thought Baroness F was being a bit feeble. She could have wrested control back from the interviewer and forcefully stated the case ("Whether I personally support either view is not the question here. The question is how to apply EA2010 properly") then I realised she just wasn't prepared for the utterly partisan interviewer. Her strategies for dealing with such partisanship are underdeveloped, possibly because she never thought she would need them on R4.

I thought the interview was rather waffly with BF not comfortable with MH’s line of questioning. I was disappointed in MH but then I shouldn’t expect too much from the BBC given its current culture. :-(

I don't agree that it was a poor interview. I thought BF sounded a little nervous at times and chose her words and message quite carefully.
But the message was that GC views are and always have been protected. Women should not be discriminated against in the workplace for holding them but equally shouldn't this ruling changes nothing in terms of how people should treat each other. There are means to address harassment.
She very clearly stated that gender reassignment is the protected characteristic (the inference being not identity).
Trans people are entitled to work without harassment, but aren't entitled to expect everyone to share their views and being alongside someone with GC views shouldn't in practice be incompatible in the workplace.
I thought these points were calmly and clearly made.

@Packitupwillya

All about the trans, as usual. I’ve heard there are another group of people, roughly half the population in fact, who are seriously affected by these issues. Anybody remember who they are? I’ve forgotten because nobody ever mentions them, only the trans.

Wumben? Wimpund? Woomud?

It was extremely disappointing, but I guess that's the BBC for you. It's vanishingly rare for women to be given anything even approaching fair representation on there, which is why Justin Webb on Today was such an absolute joy.

But still they have to keep covering this issue, because women aren't giving up. The extremely privileged BBC presenters can use their sad, disappointed voices all they like and make out that every time a woman speaks the truth a trans woman's sparkly wings wilt like Tinkerbell's, but still these court cases keep coming and companies keep leaving Stonewall and bit by bit the truth keeps emerging as the layers of lies crumble off and the veils of obfuscation fall away. The Today listeners, driving their kids to school or eating their toast might think they've missed something crucial, but most of them still believe that a woman is an adult human female and an adult human male can't become one by changing the way they dress, no matter how unkind the patronising Oxbridge-educated, ivory-tower-dwelling presenters of Today think that makes them.

I'd cut Baroness Falkner a bit of slack. Looks at what the EHRC have done since she was appointed rather than a short slot on Radio 4 where the interviewer is trying out gotchas.

If there is a complaint to be made, it could be about how in the earlier segment Helen Belcher was talking about Maya then giving examples of unpleasant behaviour in the workplace, and leaving in the air that that's what Maya had said and done. Mishal Husain didn't take the basic step of asking whether that's what Maya had actually said and done.

Yesterday's BBC reports, including the TV News at Ten repeatedly used the wording 'a woman who claimed people can't change biological sex'. 'Claimed', not 'stated'. On the basic facts of life.
I found myself shouting at the TV several times that she hasn't claimed it, she has stated it. I know they can't hear me but it did at least let off some steam.

I don't agree that it was a poor interview. I thought BF sounded a little nervous at times and chose her words and message quite carefully.

It was poor interviewing, however, designed to highlight one side in a dispute rather than throwing light on the issues.

which is why Justin Webb on Today was such an absolute joy.

And Joanna Cherry ran rings around the presenter yesterday, and calmly resisted the attempt to frame feminists as mean and abusive.

Let me re-phrase that:
‘If you are a woman, can you see how being in a workplace with a colleague who holds views like that...'

Why does no one care that being a woman in a workplace with colleagues who don’t believe sex is real is also uncomfortable?

@Packitupwillya

All about the trans, as usual. I’ve heard there are another group of people, roughly half the population in fact, who are seriously affected by these issues. Anybody remember who they are? I’ve forgotten because nobody ever mentions them, only the trans.

Well not so sure. According to YouGov probably around half (43%) of your 50%, so perhaps 25% max?

So you still have some ground to make up from the masses who don't give a bit about an issue that is really mostly noise and doesn't impact anyone in reality versus standard day to day misogyny and sexism. But hey.....it keeps the keyboard warriors going, while those with true patriachial power just carry on while everyone else is scrapping on something so immaterial. That old Dunkirk Spirit!