Maya R4 now

[TedImgoingmad]

Barroness Faulkner of EHRC!

Lots of people think a transgender woman is a woman who identifies as a man, and others think it is a man who has had genital reconstruction. When you explain clearly that a transgender woman is someone male who identifies as a woman and who may have made no changes to their appearance and that 95% retain their male genitals then you get very different answers.

mostly noise and doesn't impact anyone in reality

I'll just leave Lucy Mcdonagh's twitter thread about some of the women who are most impacted by this here, and the ways in which it harms them.

web.archive.org/web/20180315031511/https:/twitter.com/LucyLoveslife1/status/973852316787933184

Well not so sure. According to YouGov probably around half (43%) of your 50%, so perhaps 25% max?

People are happy to live and let live, within reason, and for others to express themselves how they feel comfortable. Polls have consistently shown this. However, when it's spelled out that any "women" in question are intact biological males (like the vast majority of MTF trans people) women aren't so keen to share single sex female spaces with them. Neither does the general public agree with legal sex self ID.

Why is that, if everyone really genuinely believes TWAW? I think we know the answer.

You’ve completely missed the point, Mishy. These issues impact on all women, who are 51% of the population.

Anyway, is ther any chance of you popping back to the biology thread and helping out some very confused biochemists and doctors? I think they are looking for clarity on one or two points that you’d raised. Thanks

Yes, you need a prompt to make the person answering think about what they're saying. Referring to being in female-only spaces where their female child will be or "for relationship purposes" will usually do the trick.

Your graphs don't prove what you think they prove, MishyJDI

And they don't refute Packitupwillya 's point either.

Nice try though.

@WinterTrees

'If you are a trans person, can you see how being in a workplace with a colleague who holds views like that...'

Views like what? That sex is a biological reality? I think MH's soft, slightly offended tone is pointing listeners towards the conclusion that feminists are just being needlessly mean.

That's quite an interesting viewpoint, there are lots of people holding various views, how is it any different from say a Christian in the workplace, knowing that colleagues are an atheist? People are going to hold different views, get over it.

(I'm aware it is not yours winter )

These issues impact on all women, who are 51% of the population.

This case also protects men who want to argue for women's rights without being punished for it.

wingsoverscotland.com/transforming-the-question/

Results very different when question less vague.

If there is a complaint to be made, it could be about how in the earlier segment Helen Belcher was talking about Maya then giving examples of unpleasant behaviour in the workplace, and leaving in the air that that's what Maya had said and done. Mishal Husain didn't take the basic step of asking whether that's what Maya had actually said and done.

Yes - I agree. We need to define unpleasant behaviour in the workplace:

• haranguing a TW colleague and constantly referencing that they are male IS harassment
• ensuring that single sex exemptions are protected and ‘sex’ is the discriminator IS NOT harassment.

Which means - some misgendering (e.g with impunity) would count as harassment, and some statement of biological fact to ensure equality act provisions, would not.

BF - did say that the employers need to adhere to the Equality Act - male/female - irrespective of what HB thinks about it.

If you are a trans person, can you see how being in a workplace with a colleague who holds views like that...'

People really need to grow up. I am an atheist. That means Roman Catholics believe I will burn in hell for eternity. Guess what, I can happily work alongside Roman Catholics- without getting upset, and imagine this - even joke about this view.

Results very different when question less vague.

Yes, there have been several such polls, all with the same result.

People really need to grow up. I am an atheist. That means Roman Catholics believe I will burn in hell for eternity. Guess what, I can happily work alongside Roman Catholics- without getting upset, and imagine this - even joke about this view.

So is it ok to state that homosexuality is a sin and wrong, in the workplace in front of gay/ lesbian colleagues? Does that create a hostile environment?

So is it ok to state that homosexuality is a sin and wrong, in the workplace in front of gay/ lesbian colleagues? Does that create a hostile environment?

Possibly. Which is why groups like Stonewall should think about whether they should stop doing that.

So is it ok to state that homosexuality is a sin and wrong, in the workplace in front of gay/ lesbian colleagues? Does that create a hostile environment?

Surely that would depend on context. To say in the course of a discussion that "Religion x believes group y will burn in hell" is different from "You are from group y, and you will burn in hell". The second is personal, and is definitely harassment.

So is it ok to state that homosexuality is a sin and wrong, in the workplace in front of gay/ lesbian colleagues? Does that create a hostile environment?

I am trying to think of a context in which someone would say that at work. I can only think if this happens in the context of a church (should we marry people of the same sex for example). That would be protected to do, based on someone's beliefs.

Same applies to gender reassignment: discussing whether a coworker who is a transwoman should be allowed to use the womens toilets at work: yes. Going around shouting they are not a woman: no.
Saying a coworker is transphobic for discussing whether the transwoman can use the womens toilets at work: no.

Context is everything. Respect should go both ways.

I think I got my yesses and no's unclear:

Yes, you can discuss, no you cannot harrass and that includes calling a coworker asking for single sex provisions transphobic.

The BBC's bias is now so clear that surely we need to do something about it. I'm contacting my MP to complain.

Same applies to gender reassignment: discussing whether a coworker who is a transwoman should be allowed to use the womens toilets at work: yes.

Somehow I don’t think Baroness Faulkner was expecting this to mean that trans women who have been transitioned for many years and known only in their female role should suddenly start being challenged for using the female toilets at work.

Somehow I don’t think Baroness Faulkner was expecting this to mean that trans women who have been transitioned for many years and known only in their female role should suddenly start being challenged for using the female toilets at work.

You mean you don't think she was expecting this to mean workplaces being challenged for failing ro respect tge dignity, privacy and safety of women for years? That fact that women have been discriminated against for years is unlikely to come as a surprise, nor is she likely to suggest that this is a reason not to fight it.

I know a lot of people dislike Juliet Hartley Brewer, but I enjoyed her interview with MF this morning.
the link doesn't work for me, but it starts at 8.20.
So refreshing to have an interviewer that isn't all about the hurt feelings of TW.

If there is a complaint to be made, it could be about how in the earlier segment Helen Belcher was talking about Maya then giving examples of unpleasant behaviour in the workplace, and leaving in the air that that's what Maya had said and done. Mishal Husain didn't take the basic step of asking whether that's what Maya had actually said and done.

I didn't hear the Belcher segment, but surely if she intimated that Maya harassed someone at work or behaved in any way that could be categorised as such, this is slander.

I've been stuck on this since I heard it this morning and I need to let it out before I explode:

'If you are a trans person, can you see how being in a workplace with a colleague who holds views like that...'

Well yes, pretty much everyone understands what it's like to work with people who hold views that are at odds with your existence. Especially if you're a woman or not white or religious or disabled or not heterosexual etc etc. It sucks, but virtually all of us know what that's like ffs.