I've just been called "unscientific" for saying that you cannot change sex

[CloudyMoment]

It's just a rant really, but also fishing for possible counter-arguments.

I thought that nobody really properly argues against the fact that sex is something you are born with, and that his cannot be changed.

Apparently those people think sex is not immutable. That it actually can change- because apparently also eye colour can change throughout life. I tried arguing against, that we are still born with a coded expression hair or eye colour, and that this does not change. I feel that this is very much a philosophical discussion to be had.. but meanwhile. How do you show robustly and scientifically that sex is immutable?

It is a bit of an aside, but when I did my clinical genetics training 12 years ago there was a real push to use DSD (which we understood as standing for disorders of sex differentiation), recognising the limitations and inappropriateness of the term 'intersex'. I believe this came from consultation with people with those disorders, but appreciate not everyone will feel the same, and things may have changed again since then anyway. Also, this may be UK-specific - in my experience, medical terminology is often very different in the US and a lot of the current debate derives from there.

Personally I love the way that people can play with stereotypes of male and female. I also love that people can dress more how they want, have long hair, short hair, wear skirts or jeans. I absolutely will strive for a more tolerant society. I also want a fair society, and one that sticks up for the vulnerable.

I really like that being kind, or strong, or wearing make up or not, being graceful, being caring and nuturing, or assertive and brave - that all the myriad of being human can be expressed by any of us in any way we like. Love it! The more the better. A man who loves to cook and feed the baby. A woman who is brave and fearless, and also takes out the bins. A man who wears a skirt or whatever.

Being a woman or a man should not define us, isn’t that the point? I think it’s very simple and doesn’t need to rewrite biology truths.

We are always a woman or a man, biologically, however how we are can take so many different ways and forms. Without harassment.

I’d like to see a world where men who feel like a woman in whatever degree or form can happily use the male toilets, compete in male sports, in male single sex wards in hospital and be recorded as male. And yet be able to call himself Mary, wear a dress every day, be as feminine as he likes. Why not? Should this even need a label such as trans? As a label just pigeon holes you again to a particular stereotype doesn’t it?

According to a support type website I looked at, some now prefer the term VSD, Variation in Sexual Development.

@SpikeDearheart

It is a bit of an aside, but when I did my clinical genetics training 12 years ago there was a real push to use DSD (which we understood as standing for disorders of sex differentiation), recognising the limitations and inappropriateness of the term 'intersex'. I believe this came from consultation with people with those disorders, but appreciate not everyone will feel the same, and things may have changed again since then anyway. Also, this may be UK-specific - in my experience, medical terminology is often very different in the US and a lot of the current debate derives from there.

Interesting - thank you.

The NHS here in the UK seems to currently define it as differences in sex development. As you say it seems to change a fair bit, and also depending on where you are based.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

@ErrolTheDragon

According to a support type website I looked at, some now prefer the term VSD, Variation in Sexual Development.

when I did my clinical genetics training 12 years ago there was a real push to use DSD (which we understood as standing for disorders of sex differentiation), recognising the limitations and inappropriateness of the term 'intersex'.

I agree with both points here - as human shields, however, "intersex" seems to be the 'gotcha' term. I was left baffled by this footnote posted but now deleted from Twitter (sorry if the screenshot ends up in the 'quoted post' - I don't understand what happens with these).

Ooh. Mic drop 😁

Personally I love the way that people can play with stereotypes of male and female.

And yet they so rarely play with them when it comes to boring, everyday, non self-expressive stuff like the big shop, the bulk of domestic shitwork even when both people have jobs, childcare, or caring for elderly relatives.

@NecessaryScene - I'll have a read!

@DrSbaitso as I’ve found out to my cost! (Single mother here... due to looking after everyone including my kids and my Ex!)

I’m tempted to say that sex could be scientifically assessed on who got the nits from their child’s hair, sent MIL a get well soon card and booked the gas boiler repair... but that would be slightly bitter of me! And possibly very unscientific.

Still, I live in hope.

Regarding what name to call someone who is born with a mixture of not defined sex, for example in rare cases men can have XX due to so translocation of a gene. The X or Y are important for triggering development to a man or a woman in puberty.

These are so rare. That is the first important point. Which is why we don’t really have a widely agreed name and probably never will, as there won’t be consensus from enough individuals with that rarity.

I guess the word used needs to suit a need or purpose. Medically a term needs to be well defined enough for a medical person to know exactly what is going on biologically and physically. For the person/people born with these incredibly rare biologies, it is whatever helps them or suits them. It is their biology and their right to be called whatever they want.

Just checking back in... did we ever get the Super Sciencey Special Education On Complicated Sex For Biologists?

@TheElementsSong

Just checking back in... did we ever get the Super Sciencey Special Education On Complicated Sex For Biologists?

Still waiting...

@TheElementsSong

Just checking back in... did we ever get the Super Sciencey Special Education On Complicated Sex For Biologists?

Maybe they morphed into a clownfish.

Just as people who make such statements as the one you were responding to [that one can have XY chromosomes and a uterus] should stop, as they are misinformed and are appropriating a rare condition to shore up a weak point. It's really unpleasant.

The danger of assumptions...

As a person with a DSD, I am entitled to reference my own condition; no appropriation necessary. I am not misinformed; however, I was not using my condition (Swyer's Syndrome) to argue that it is possible to change sex. I am glad that the concensus seems to be that people with this disorder are female. I both look and feel like a woman (psychological challenges of dealing with congenital infertility and various other symptoms of the disorder notwithstanding).

I am also quite strongly opposed to the inclusion of "I" in the alphabet soup of LGBT etc.

@justawoman76 - I missed your post before, but very much agree with it.

@LemonMeringueThreePointOneFour

Just as people who make such statements as the one you were responding to [that one can have XY chromosomes and a uterus] should stop, as they are misinformed and are appropriating a rare condition to shore up a weak point. It's really unpleasant.

The danger of assumptions...

As a person with a DSD, I am entitled to reference my own condition; no appropriation necessary. I am not misinformed; however, I was not using my condition (Swyer's Syndrome) to argue that it is possible to change sex. I am glad that the concensus seems to be that people with this disorder are female. I both look and feel like a woman (psychological challenges of dealing with congenital infertility and various other symptoms of the disorder notwithstanding).

I am also quite strongly opposed to the inclusion of "I" in the alphabet soup of LGBT etc.

Of course you're female! You are of the reproductive sex class that is capable of producing ova. You may have a condition that interferes with your own production of ova, like many women, but that doesn't change the fact that you are of the sex class that is capable of it; your condition, by interfering with ova production, can by nature occur only within a female body.

@lemonMeringueThreePointOneFour

Yes. And what the f**k being appropriated into any alphabet!

Unfortunately up here in Scotland behind included in the alphabet soup has meant DSD charities losing funding money to LGBT+ groups who are "supposed to be looking after the " I" interests.

[quote LemonMeringueThreePointOneFour]@justawoman76 - I missed your post before, but very much agree with it.[/quote]
Thank you LemonMeringue.
I have often thought that Swyers must be one of the more difficult DSDs to come to terms with, given that there are often few physical indications externally and many girls don't know they have it until quite an advanced age.
A positive diagnosis must be like a form of grieving for some people, I can't imagine what you must have gone through.
I hope that everything works out for you.

@justawoman76 - thank you. My teens weren't a barrel of laughs, that's for sure. I'd love to say I'm now in a happy relationship and have successfully had IVF/adopted, but unfortunately neither of those is the case either.

@DrSbaitso - thank you, that means a lot.

[quote LemonMeringueThreePointOneFour]@DrSbaitso - thank you, that means a lot.[/quote]
It's all true.

And while I'm sorry that you don't have the things in life that you hoped you would by this stage, that makes you no less of a woman either. There are plenty of women without a DSD in exactly the same position. And you really never know what lies ahead.

The eye colour thing is daft because eye colour IS on a spectrum whereas sex isn't.
On terms of refuting the argument, here's how I go:

1. The only way to make a human person is with one sperm and one egg. There's no other way to make a new human. (Even if it's done in a laboratory its still always onr speem and one egg)
2. Every human person is born with the equipment to produce EITHER sperm (with XY chromosomes)or eggs (with XX chromosomes). Even in cases of chromosomal abnormalities, no person has ever been born with the ability to produce both sperm and eggs, and no person has ever switched halfway through their life to produce the other type of sex cell, and no person has ever been born with a third type of sex cell by which new human life can be created.

1. Some human bodies are born with defects. For example, a person can be born with eardrums that do not function properly: they are deaf or hard of hearing. Or they might be born with eyes that do not function properly: they are blind or partially-sighted. Or the defect may be that the sexual organs are formed in such a way that they are unable to effectively produce either eggs or sperm. The organs are there, but they dont function properly. This is infertility. The people are still male/female according to their internal organs and chromosomes. This condition is infertility.

1. A person may be born with irregularities in the external appearance of their genitals, meaning that it us difficult to tell from external examination whether the body has male or female sex organs. In these cases, xray and chromisomal testing may be necessary to determine whether the body has male(sperm-producing) or female(egg-producing) sex organs. These people suffer from DSD (disorder of sexual development) but every one if them is still either male or female. These people used be referred to as intersex, but this is not an accurate term because in each case they are either female with abnormalities or male with abnormalities, and for this reason many find the term "intersex" offensive

sharksarecool

You could, in theory, clone a human being from one donor, but such a donor would be a genetic twin and not a genetic parent. Both would have the same genetic parents.

This is the definition of mass psychosis.